Baker blog paladin and dragonborn

Bishmon said:
For what it's worth, they were pretty clear about it in Races & Classes. They also said dragonborn will be able to take a feat eventually that will allow them to have wings.
I'll just note that you shouldn't assume that everything in Races & Classes is canon. Note that the paladin's challenge changed after DDXP. Obviously the game is at the printers NOW, but the designers were continuing to explore things up to the end. Races & Classes is a reflection of early principles guiding the design - but I wouldn't expect it to be 100% accurate when it comes to actual crunch.
 

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Reaper Steve said:
Although, I have to wonder how they worded the caveat: 'does not take damage if unable to attack the paladin.' That would be open to abuse on its own and not really solve the problem.
Again, I'm NOT quoting the rules, I'm describing the effect. The actual manner in which it is implemented seems very sound to me.
 

Hellcow said:
A few things...

First, on the final fight in general, the thing I'll emphasize is how much fun I had with it. We were first level characters. The DM threw a horde of kobolds at us. We ended up dying. But in the process we had all sorts of interesting abilities to use and decisions to make. As I said, I had a chance to use every ability I possessed in that final fight (including two of my skills). I was channeling divinity, breathing lightning, laying on hands, calling on my daily and encounter powers...

AHA!! Dragonborn (can choose to get?) Breath weapons at level 1! Or perhaps that is their racial power....? Either way this is a great scoop, and as a player who struggled with LA in 3.5 because I had a great concept for a Half-Dragon PC, this warms my heart beyond belief. :D

Apparently based on prior posts a number of people won't be too happy about this, which I can somewhat understand the sentiment (Dragons should be unique and unprecedented within the setting ...making a core humanoid race of Dragon-people trivializes the True Dragons). But while I can understand that argument, I also must say that now that we have core Dragonborn, the opportunities this unlocks in terms of story-telling have multiplied abundantly.

Picture, if you will, a vast empire of Draconic creatures, ruled over by Dragon Lords whose bloodlines flowed through their houses of loyal Dragonborn and Kobold followers. Their skills in War and Politics knew no bounds, and every race once knelt before the glory of the Platinum Kingdom. Now picture the fall of this empire with the collapse of the power of the True Dragons, and consider a world of Ash and Waste, with the ruins of Arkhosia dotting the blasted landscape. The Dragonborn bloodline is failing, and these once proud creatures eke out an existence alongside the peoples they once subjugated. The average Dragonborn in this age is of a weak, rusty copper color, and the Animus of arcane energy that once dwelt in their hearts is no more. But rumor abounds of wandering tribes of the so-called "Trueborn," blooded descendants of the ancient Houses whose scales still shine resplendently in the Metallic and Chromatic colors of their descendants. They offer promises of a glorious return to the Age of Fire, and the disaffected Dragonborn youth of many settlements flock to their banners, seeking to prove their worth in battle in the eyes of the Trueborn. Is the prophesied re-birth of ancient Arkhosia an omen for good or ill, and how will the PC's interact with these developments? In my opinion, the inclusion of Dragonborn has vastly opened up RP oppurtunities to really make Dragons feel like an "alive" component of your setting, instead of just "that Black Dragon in the cave we killed and looted. Boy, was that a tough fight."

....without getting into specifics,, the way I see the power is this. The paladin calls out the creature and says "These people are under my protection, villain. Face me, or feel the warth of the Silver Flame!" If the opponent meets the challenge, that's fine; the paladin is a divine champion, and the powers that he possesses have been granted to him to fight this battle. If the creature scoffs at the paladin and refuses to face him, he is scoffing at the paladin's gods - and then you get that radiant damage. It's not the paladin blasting the creature, it's the force that empowers him; the gods themselves are backing up the paladin's challenge.

Great, love this interpretation of the Paladin's challenge. Hope something explaining it like that makes it into the books for the sake of all the "literalists" out there. :)
 
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Dark080matter said:
Picture, if you will,...

Careful there, I started to have a Twilight Zone flashback. Yikes!! :uhoh:

I like your story idea though. Great idea for working the Dragonborn into a campaign. A thought I had was that they could be humans who have undergone a transformation and are on a life quest to become a True Dragon. True Dragons could be warriors or heroes who made a form of transcendence into the first "legendary dragons" within the given world while dragons you encounter are the descended from True Dragon breeding. Upon reaching 30 a Dragonborn can undergo that transcendence to become a True Dragon. Surviving True Dragons could be Bahamut and Tiamat.
 

Dark080matter said:
Either way this is a great scoop...
*Sigh* Teach me not to check - I'd thought one of the DDXP characters was a dragonborn. Obviously the R&C entry mentioned a breath weapon being associated with the race, so it's not coming out of left field. I will say that people should wait until they see a dragonborn character before jumping to too many conclusions about this. I thought that it was incredibly fun power, but note that our group still lost that fight against the kobolds - don't fill your head with visions of incinerating vast armies.

I'll also say that dragonborn are not half-dragons. Let me quote another post I made on this subject...

Hellcow said:
Dragonborn aren't half-dragons. They don't have dragon daddies. The relationship is far closer to Rhashaak and his blackscale lizardfolk... they are dragon-y, nothing more. The reason most of the dragons of Argonnessen dislike half-dragons is because they think they are disgusting - it's the way I'd expect most humans to feel if someone had sex with a dog and produced a creepy, stunted puppy with fingers on its front paws and a human nose and chin. It's an ugly, crippled little thing produced by perverse behavior, living proof that one of our own demeaned himself and his blood by breeding with one of these little rodents. Dragonborn, on the other hand, are more like a breed of dogs that are amusing because they act like humans - aww, look at his mouth, doesn't he look like he's smiling? And he can shake hands! But there's no creepy "When I look at you I am reminded that my uncle had sex with a maggot in order to produce you" that you get with half-dragons.
I'm one of the voices behind the limited role of half-dragons in Eberron, because they just don't fit very well with the tone of the dragons. But dragonborn are different, and I don't believe that they weaken the role or majesty of dragons in the setting.
 

Hellcow said:
Again, I'm NOT quoting the rules, I'm describing the effect. The actual manner in which it is implemented seems very sound to me.

My bad, I did not mean to imply that you were quoting rules.

I was just speculating as to how 'the marked creature must attack the paladin or take radiant damage, unless the marked creature has no opportunity to attack the paladin' (my sheer conjecture hack at the rule based on the described effect) will be worded to prevent abuse of the last portion of that.

Thanks for being here--I enjoyed your report (and I think it's cool that a Level 1 Dragonborn has/can have a breath weapon!)
 

dm4hire said:
...they could be humans who have undergone a transformation and are on a life quest to become a True Dragon. True Dragons could be warriors or heroes who made a form of transcendence into the first "legendary dragons" within the given world while dragons you encounter are those descended from True Dragon breeding. Upon reaching 30 a Dragonborn can undergo that transcendence to become a True Dragon. Surviving True Dragons could be Bahamut and Tiamat.


Wow. That is a truly excellent idea! I would be curious how one might justify the "equality" of different PC races to Dragonborn: your story idea makes it sound like the Dragonborn are really already leagues above Humans for example.

Hellcow said:
*Sigh* Teach me not to check - I'd thought one of the DDXP characters was a dragonborn. Obviously the R&C entry mentioned a breath weapon being associated with the race, so it's not coming out of left field. I will say that people should wait until they see a dragonborn character before jumping to too many conclusions about this. I thought that it was incredibly fun power, but note that our group still lost that fight against the kobolds - don't fill your head with visions of incinerating vast armies.

haha uh-oh hope you don't get into trouble for that Keith, sorry.
Yeah, we already knew they were going to get breath weapons. The speculations up to now had mostly been that it might start at Paragon-tier though, which accounts for my pleasant surprise at your post. :)

And yeah I wouldn't expect a Dragonborn breath weapon at level 1 to be obviously overpowered compared to the tricks everyone else gets. Hopefully we can take Feats or something that will allow us to keep the Breath weapon relevant all the way up to Epic level though. :p


I'll also say that dragonborn are not half-dragons...

I know, I know. But I love the roleplay/setting connections that can be made by linking them closely to their Draconic origins. It isn't, I should think necessary that a Dragonborn must be directly linked to the reproduction of a Dragon and another totally different creature, while still having Dragonborn who exemplify traits of major True Dragon types... their inheritance is a more spiritual or mental link in my proposed setting. On the other hand in some other setting, perhaps in the distant past Dragonborn and True Dragons really did have blood ties, I can see Dragons doing this to ensure the loyalty of Dragonborn tribes and to better influence them and spread the Dragon's own power... nation-building in essence.

Moreover, I can easily imagine Dragonborn historians who would vehemently argue that they most definitely are descended from True Dragons, actual facts be damned. :D

Obviously Eberron will take it's own path on this regardless of what I may say in my own homebrew setting though.
 
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Thanks Keith for the clarifications on the dragonborn and the paladin power.

And great post Dark080matter and DM4hire.

@ Dark080matter: I'm pretty sure the breath weapon damage will scale up in tier (i.e.: 1d/3d/5d or something similar).
 

I also hope that you don´t get into trouble. In fact, wizard should say thanks to you. You are the only one who keeps the players enthusiastic about 4e at the moment.
 

MaelStorm said:
What is your point? ... To each their own.

I do not have a point. As a matter of fact, I have on 4e dragonborn the same opinion that I have on 3e half-dragons. In many ways, they are the same thing. I just seem to overreact when I read a post of someone emphasizing (positively or negatively) the novelty of something which is not new. I guess I'm just older, and I've been sold "new" stuff too many times. In a way, anything you haven't seen before is new for you, and that's all that matters.

Happy gaming, end communication. :)
 

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