Balance Meter - allowing flavorful imbalance in a balanced game

So wait. Let me get this straight. My experience is heavily of people who just want to make a character roughly fit their concept, not overshadowing someone else in the party, because we are all just friends having a good time.

Your experience is of people that work hard to break it, which they then post on the internet so that other people can use the broken results without doing the work.

Nope, your experience of people just trying to make concepts work = pretty much mine. None of the concepts have tended to be terribly off the wall either. The game works just fine from small parties to large. No real breakages aside from a poorly designed homegrown prestige class that cropped up. No characters that significantly overshadowed each other throughout the course of the campaign. Low level, mid level, and high level games.
The game's pretty resilient.
 

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Actually, a lot of people with a lot of sense do pick those first three because it's the character they want to play. If this were a game just of tabletop miniature mechanics, then those first three can be pretty easily dominated by judicious selection from the later ones. But it's not. People play fighters because they want to play fighters, not just because they can tweak the DPS really high. People play wizards because they want to play wizards, not just because they can pump their save DCs high enough to drive some encounter-ending spells. And, believe it or not, people actually play bards and monks. Shocking, I know, to certain viewpoints that choose not to see past the numbers, past the worst-case scenarios, and past the optimization guides.

The thing is lots of people do pick the first three because that is the character they want to play. However many, many more do not because what they want to play is a character who is cool in his own right - and is not Robin the Boy Hostage or Sidekick Man. And there are those of us who stay away from the top tier options because, much as we love the concept, the execution would be bad for the game. I'm a fan of the Batman Wizard, pulling out spells for contingencies. I love the concept. But last one I played was in a 4e game - and I retired him because he was running the DM ragged with his versatility. The 3e magic users above all just makes the concept for me non-viable because it's far too strong.

So because of the imbalance of 3.X, many so-called possible character concepts become highly undesirable. I like the concept of BMX Bandit. I like the concept of Angel Summoner. But having one in the game makes playing the other ... undesirable.

This is a totally backward perspective in my experience. People work at optimizing the hell out of characters, they pour over DPS calculations, they scour sourcebooks for advantages, they spend time digging through spell lists, writing up levels' worth of fussy builds, and calculating stacking modifiers through standard buff strategies. None of that comes easy or without effort.

It takes work to break the 3e branch of D&D.

DPS does not break 3.X. DPS takes work for minimal return (other than Hulking Hurlers - 50,000 damage per attack being possible with one of those at L20). And over the years I've put a lot of work into optimising my favourite class. The Bard. Which isn't too much trouble because Bards are ... Bards. (And actually pretty solidly in tier 3 - ahead of the non-casters).

For that matter it's not exploits like Pun-Pun or the Locate City Bomb that break 3.X either.

What it is is the sheer overpowered nature of some spells, and the spammability of items. Oh, and the druid having two incredibly powrful class features (Wild Shape and a Pet). Direct blast-mage damage is looking the wrong way.
 

So wait. Let me get this straight. My experience is heavily of people who just want to make a character roughly fit their concept, not overshadowing someone else in the party, because we are all just friends having a good time. Your experience is of people that work hard to break it, which they then post on the internet so that other people can use the broken results without doing the work.

Yet, not having seen people just play 3E without doing this, you are sure that it doesn't accidently break. Your so sure, that you saw fit to imply that people like me looking into this on behalf of their groups could only be doing so because they weren't interested in real roleplaying.

Maybe, just maybe, there is a gap in your experience, that makes your guesses of why some other people do certain things, not terribly accurate.

Exactly. My experience with 3e, and 3.5 and pathfinder have shown that groups just trying to make cool characters, have fun and working together, along with a dm who is sentient will have relatively equal strength characters. Could it have been improved? absolutely. I thought the cleric and the druid were a lil to strong, and the monk was a little to week. But, did it need to be fixed to the degree of everyone having the same power structure as in 4e? Asolutely not.


Majoru Oakheart - I disagree that imbalance is ever a good thing. If you have a system that says:
I agree with you. But the fact is I never really saw significant imbalance in properly run 3.x games. Of course we may disagree on what constitutes properly run in D&D [hint RAW, no social contract, no DM arbiter, and tournament/living greyhawk style games do not constitute properly run by my personal definition].
 
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Actually, a lot of people with a lot of sense do pick those first three because it's the character they want to play. If this were a game just of tabletop miniature mechanics, then those first three can be pretty easily dominated by judicious selection from the later ones. But it's not. People play fighters because they want to play fighters, not just because they can tweak the DPS really high. People play wizards because they want to play wizards, not just because they can pump their save DCs high enough to drive some encounter-ending spells. And, believe it or not, people actually play bards and monks. Shocking, I know, to certain viewpoints that choose not to see past the numbers, past the worst-case scenarios, and past the optimization guides.
That was true, for the first little while in our group. I think we went through a couple of "phases" with 3e/3.5e. At first we just wanted to try things out. We played whatever classes interested us. We tried to make a powerful monk and a powerful fighter because they sounded cool.

But our game sessions tend to be 5 hours long. In that 5 hours, we should expect a good 3-4 hours of it to be combat. We go through a lot of dungeons, purchased adventures, and when a couple of our DMs come up with adventures they write them in the same vein(Combat encounter, 30 minutes of roleplaying, combat encounter, 15 minutes of roleplaying, and so on).

Since there was such a focus on combat, being bad at combat meant sitting around for the hour that each battle took watching your entire party be way better at defeating the monsters than you were. Then bragging about it: "Did you see how I took that Dragon down in ONE round because I cast 2 spells at it? That was awesome!" And at first we high fived each other and agreed that is was awesome, since we defeated the dragon. But over time, we became less and less enthusiastic about how awesome certain members of our party were and more obsessed with trying to do awesome things with our own characters to match them.

It was still cool to roleplay our characters. I played an awesome Monk with a cool personality once or twice. But it was 15 minutes of saying "I am very honorable and know powerful martial arts. Fear me." followed by an hour and a half of missing every enemy I attacked. Our group referred to flurry of blows as "flurry of misses".

Then we entered the second phase where everyone started changing characters nearly every session because they didn't enjoy combat with their character or they simply wanted to see how something else did. My group loved character creation more than they did actually playing the game. So, if they could have their character leave the group after every session and get a chance to make a new character, they'd take it.

We played so many different types of characters that we started to learn what worked and what didn't. We realized that single class characters were a fools game. Thus, we entered the 3rd phase: Only multiclass characters and casters.

Most of the worse abuses of the game were kept at bay by the DMs. Most of them relied on...shady wording of the rules. Not necessarily breaking the rules but stretching them. For instance, Pun Pun required you play a Kobold(which wasn't on our list of allowed races) and the DM has to let you change into a creature that's been extinct for 1000 years and exists only in the Forgotten Realms. Hulking Hurler builds required that your DM use the optional throwing table from the one book which was clearly broken and not intended to be combined with Hulking Hurler. We didn't allow stretching the rules. But if you were broken with a perfectly valid reading of the rules, then it was perfectly ok. No one would tell you what you couldn't play.

This is the phase we ended in. Characters included the Fighter/Barbarian/Frenzied Berzerker who could pounce on a charge and averaged about 150 points of damage a round. Which was more then the hitpoints of nearly every monster whose CR was even close to his level. Another character was a combination of Warlock and some other classes who could hide in plain sight, had permanent fire whips in both hands that did 10d6 damage each with 5 attacks per round and could sneak attack with all of his attacks while adding warlock's blast damage to them.

One of the players from that game joined someone else's 3.5e game(when they got bored of 4e) and is apparently being forced by the DM every session to roll up a new character because each character he comes up with is way more powerful than the rest of the group. But no matter how hard he tries, the next character he comes up with is just as bad. He can no longer think in terms of "bad" characters.

Now, I understand that some groups who either don't play as often as we do(We were playing 3-4 times a week) or have less combat encounters might still be playing in phase 1. But that doesn't mean that once you know how the system works that our actions aren't the logical conclusion. I was one of the only people left in my group at the end who even considered playing a single class character at the end for roleplaying reasons.

EDIT: I think it does take "work" to break it. But the work isn't that hard. And once your know a couple of ways of breaking it, you tend to think in terms of what's broken rather than what's balanced. It didn't take that much work for one of our PCs to come up with a character. Normally a new book would come out and they'd immediately say "Did you see this feat? Doesn't that make anyone who is a shapechanging Druid SUPER BROKEN? I'm making up a Druid for next week."
 
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EDIT: I think it does take "work" to break it. But the work isn't that hard. And once your know a couple of ways of breaking it, you tend to think in terms of what's broken rather than what's balanced. It didn't take that much work for one of our PCs to come up with a character. Normally a new book would come out and they'd immediately say "Did you see this feat? Doesn't that make anyone who is a shapechanging Druid SUPER BROKEN? I'm making up a Druid for next week."

I like this part the most. In my view it took WORK to break the game. But I can at least see in a high combat game, where you play 3-5 times a week, the work would become less work.

Thanks for explaining your view in a clear way that doesnt demean or exaggerate other peoples views. Ill try to do the same :)
 
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Exactly. My experience with 3e, and 3.5 and pathfinder have shown that groups just trying to make cool characters, have fun and working together, along with a dm who is sentient will have relatively equal strength characters. Could it have been improved? absolutely. I thought the cleric and the druid were a lil to strong, and the monk was a little to week. But, did it need to be fixed to the degree of everyone having the same power structure as in 4e? Asolutely not.


I agree with you. But the fact is I never really saw significant imbalance in properly run 3.x games. Of course we may disagree on what constitutes properly run in D&D [hint RAW, no social contract, no DM arbiter, and tournament/living greyhawk style games do not constitute properly run by my personal definition].

Note that I was referring to 4E working for us, not 3E. 3E did work for awhile, but the more familiar we became with it, the more the warts showed. And part of this is because we were flat lucky in our early 3E games. The druid fell behind in character level, the cleric took a prestige class that wasn't that hot, and the wizard had two levels of monk. With those restrictions, the fighter, rogue, barbarian, bard were able to keep up longer than you might expect. Then when they started getting behind, I flipped a few extra, highly focused magic items their way. Nothing in the game helped us here--we were just lucky in our choices.

I like to think I'm a reasonably competent DM. You'll note, that when it started to break, I was able to patch it, we kept going, and we did have a lot of fun. OTOH, the last two or three years of patching took their toll, until I got so tired of doing it that prepping 3E games made me feel physically sick (not kidding), and I had the worst case of DM burnout I've ever experienced in 30+ years of running fantasy roleplaying games.

I like to compare running 3E games to watching certain films or musicals. The first six or seven times I saw Gone with the Wind or Sound of Music, I enjoyed it. Then I started noticing a tendency to giggle at certain scenes where I had not before. And then finally I reached that stage that I hit playing in the orchestra for a local production of Little Orphan Annie--a sudden desire to blow up the sound system. In the dress rehearsal, the entire orchestra group would whisper the dialog in falsetto when we weren't playing. It wasn't because we liked it. :D

Running 3E eventually made me feel like that. It wasn't the people. It wasn't the adventures. It was the system. I could still have fun with it in the right circumstances, but they might be rather abnormal ones. ;)
 
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It would have actually been easier on me, and extended our appreciation of 3E, if we had had a couple of people capable of seeing the broken combos. Because no one in our group would have deliberately broke things, and we probaby averaged about 40% to 50% combat, with not infrequent sessions of only 25% or so. There was a lot of exploration, and most of our campaigns featured a fair amount of mystery and intrigue.

What happened instead was that we were blithely playing, with everything kind of working, and me selectively patching when it didn't. No big deal, I've done that with Basic/Expert, 1E, etc. Then something would really break, and guess who would get to find the fix? :p Since no one us were char op types at all, and since I don't enjoy doing that, the alternative was to stumble along patching it (which I also don't like), or dig up why it was broken--AKA work.

And in fairness to 3E, part of that was my fault. Because it did more or less work for some time, I gave it more credit for robustness than it deserved. That made me hesitant to make major changes or rip things out. So sometimes we poked around the edges of a problem, instead of just deciding, "You know, lance charges are totally busted. We don't need them that much. Just forget that they exist."

It is partly that when you extend that kind of favorable "credit" to a system for a long time, when the bill comes due, it comes due hard.
 

Running 3E eventually made me feel like that. It wasn't the people. It wasn't the adventures. It was the system. I could still have fun with it in the right circumstances, but they might be rather abnormal ones. ;)
Exactly. I think it was the same way for us. I liken it to getting better at playing an instrument. You start by playing something really simple and you're just happy you can play anything at all. And you look at complicated songs and say "How does anyone even play that? It's stupidly hard and I couldn't do that even if I wanted to." Though you secretly dream of being that good.

Then you play and you play and you play...until you realize those hard songs aren't that hard after all. In fact, the simple stuff you've been playing so far is SO easy...and so BORING to play that you HAVE to move on to the more complicated stuff or playing just isn't fun.

We only had fun when were were breaking the system. Because it allowed us to break it and we were happy to do so, because breaking it was more fun than playing something really simple.

4e is already getting there for us. Though, luckily, even at it's most broken it is SOMEWHAT fair. Though, that hasn't stopped me from banning Hybrids and instituting a house rule that says you can't qualify for a PP with a multi-class feat to prevent the biggest abuses. Even then, the difference between the powergamed characters in 4e and non-powergamed characters is the difference between strikers who do 15 damage and strikers who do 50 damage. Which is a pretty wide gap. Though, not nearly as wide as the gap in 3.5e
 

Another related point: We don't take gaming all that seriously in our group. I mean, we are serious in that we seriously intend to have fun with it, and that means a certain amount of structure, fidelity to the rules, exploring the tropes, etc. But this ain't even high art, and it sure ain't death or taxes.

However, I draw the line at playing D&D as a parody of itself. We might do D&D as a pastiche of Shakespeare and have a blast, but a pastiche of nothing but D&D tropes is banal. It's myth strained too thin, through the ironic detachment and mocking filters.
 

3E did work for awhile, but the more familiar we became with it, the more the warts showed.

That somewhat parallels the early part of my experience. At first 3e was just a way of playing the game. As people become more experienced with it, we thought we found a lot of "flaws" and attempted to patch them. Then we noticed doing that did nothing to improve the game, just took time and effort. So we went back to playing the game pretty much as written + DM rulings as make sense.

Now everyone can just have fun, and since we know the rules it plays quite smoothly. It just requires players not to get hung up on whether another character finishes twice the orcs theirs does.
 

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