Balancing Save-or-Die

[I'm A Banana]

I've been pondering a bit about save-or-die mechanics as I look into what an Assassin might look like in my ideal world, or in a hypothetical 5e, and I'd like to start a bit of a conversation about them.

It's generally accepted wisdom that save-or-die is bad bad bad naughty evil bad unpleasant bad verboten no no wrong fun, and that late 3e and early 4e doing away with this mechanic was basically the second coming of Gygax. Okay, hyperbole, but you get my drift: save-or-die baaaaad.

I was thinking in the Assassin ruminations how I might want to challenge that because, to my mind, the Assassin should be save-or-die. That should be his major combat class power: the ability to kill something with one hit. So this forced me to think about what, specifically, is so awful about save-or-die, and what might be done to address it, without getting rid of that basic dynamic.

First of all, I see the point that save-or-die can be anticlimactic. "RAARGH I AM ASMODEUS!" *pew pew* "BLARGH I AM DEAD", not fun, and I think we can all agree on that. But as I pondered this, I realized that this was probably a specific case, that should be addressed by specific rules. Okay, your "solo"-level monsters take megadamage instead of dying. Or a monster you specifically designate might get some effect other than death from save-or-die (damage, perhaps some save ends effect), but every little goblin and elf? Is it really important to save the lives of every monster in a big 5-on-5 combat?

Thinking about solos lead me to thinking about minions, which, I figured...are save-or-die mechanics in a different box. Hit them, and they die. This is exactly what I want the Assassin to be able to do (in certain limited circumstances).

It also lead me to think about 4e striker mechanics. If we were to translate an Assassin's instant-death attack into 4e terms and compare it with other striker mechanics, we find that it's worth about the equivalent of 4 rogue attacks (the amount of hits a rogue needs to perform to kill a monster of equal level, give or take)...which is, over the course of a usual 10-round-or-so 4e combat is actually kind of weak sauce, if they only get it once.

I was also pondering this in terms of the Three Pillars. If combat is only one aspect of the game, might it be OK for the occasional monster to be blasted away with a single attack?

So, this is a thread for thinking about the theoretically impossible. How is it possible to keep save-or-die/instant-death/one-hit-kill mechanics in the game without making it unbalanced?

Haters who are all "It is impossible, and you are a dumb face!" will be responded to with hilarious smileys. <---(like that)

 

[Kynn]

Why would assassins in particular get "save or die" effects and other characters do not?

I'm at a loss as to why you are thinking of this regarding one particular class -- there's no thematic/fluff/conceptual reason that an assassin could kill someone with one hit and a rogue, wizard, or fighter couldn't do the same.

 

[Ahnehnois]

"Balance" in this case means "everyone can do it". If wizards can give you the finger (of death), your fighter should be able to maim or kill with an exceptionally good single blow.

There's also the simple issue of ease of access and use. People who complain about SoD talk about casters "spamming" it repeatedly and ubiquitously, which really should not happen (and is symptomatic of larger issues with powerful spells being too easy to cast). You simply should not be able to cast disintegrate five times a day at the cost of only five spell slots; that's too easy.

Lastly, there's the issue of what percentage chance the ability has of working. If you can just shoot off an ability in regular combat, and is has a 5% chance (or more) of killing someone outright, that's not good. OTOH, if you have to sneak up on them (assassin) or hurt them first (Power Word: Kill), that's okay; a high percentage chance of success is acceptable only if the situation is compromising for the defender (or, in the case of a medusa or the like, the SoD is definitional for that monster). Since d20 mechanics don't directly accomodate chances less than 5%, there have to be multiple rolls or something to prevent SoD from happening too easily.

"RAARGH I AM ASMODEUS!" *pew pew* "BLARGH I AM DEAD", not fun, and I think we can all agree on that.

Umm, Indiana Jones?

It's generally accepted wisdom that save-or-die is bad bad bad naughty evil bad unpleasant bad verboten no no wrong fun, and that late 3e and early 4e doing away with this mechanic was basically the second coming of Gygax. Okay, hyperbole, but you get my drift: save-or-die baaaaad.

It's generally accepted by a vocal minority. The loss of SoD is also a significant point for 4e critics, of whom there are plenty. Also, I suspect that like most things the average gamer is not particularly partisan on this issue.

Why would assassins in particular get "save or die" effects and other characters do not?

I'm at a loss as to why you are thinking of this regarding one particular class -- there's no thematic/fluff/conceptual reason that an assassin could kill someone with one hit and a rogue, wizard, or fighter couldn't do the same.

This is a good point. Assassins typically slit people's throats, but really anyone should be able to kill a compromised target quickly, and CdG doesn't always cover it.

 

[BobTheNob]

I have always pondered the assassin. To me, assassin isnt a combat definition, its a non combat definition. If anything, the good assassin AVOIDS fights. So I link to think of the "instant kill" to be more of a thematic capability than a combat mechanic. A way that assassins solve his problem OUTSIDE of the battle field.

As to you suggestion, I do like the idea that Normal vs Elite vs Solo get different treatments.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I have always pondered the assassin. To me, assassin isnt a combat definition, its a non combat definition. If anything, the good assassin AVOIDS fights. So I link to think of the "instant kill" to be more of a thematic capability than a combat mechanic. A way that assassins solve his problem OUTSIDE of the battle field.

That's true, but then again, why would you expect it to be a combat definition? Assassins aren't the only class defined by what they do outside of combat or how they avoid it.

I think the problem with the assassin and the SoD issue is that players feel a sense of fairness from the combat rules, and if the DM is going to try to assassinate a PC, that situation needs to work in a way that the player considers fair, while still being potentially an instant death that the player may or may not have much chance to avoid. That's a really delicate issue.

 

[Tortoise]

Why would assassins in particular get "save or die" effects and other characters do not?

I'm at a loss as to why you are thinking of this regarding one particular class -- there's no thematic/fluff/conceptual reason that an assassin could kill someone with one hit and a rogue, wizard, or fighter couldn't do the same.

By that same criteria then why can't wizards pick locks or fighters cast cure spells?

The OP is just trying to get feedback on setting up mechanics to reflect the core of what a character is, in this case, the assassin.

It is a thought excersize. What ideas do have for making it work and what flavor of fluff would you apply to describe the mechanic?

 

[Crazy Jerome]

I'll keep making my same answer that no one ever comments upon. (People must not like it, but I'll keep trying, darn it! )

"Minion" to "Solo" should be a state, not a characteristic. There are a variety of ways you can do this, from a small set of "I'm not a Minion Yet" points to a track to a handful of set labeled states with special rules for moving between them. But for discussion here, assume something simple like this track:

Minion - Thug - Standard - Elite - Solo

The effects might be like this, though the details aren't terribly important to this conversation: Minion (1 hp), Thug (1/2 hp), Standard (x1 hp), Elite (x1.5 hp), Solo (x2 hp).

PCs are near the upper end of the scale, at least Elite, by default. At low levels, there isn't much you can do to change this, and thus your state on the track pretty much is a characteristic. You might have a handful of abilities that can turn "thugs" into "minions" for a short time.

Then abilities in older versions that normally bypass hit points must address the track instead. The more powerful the spell, the more it can do. If it knocks you clean off the track, then it does kill you (or turn you to stone or whatever). Say that the old "Harm" knocks you down 3 levels (to stick with its historical nastiness for a moment). That's enough to outright kill a Standard or lower that fails their save.

Or you might decide that it forces 3 saves attempts, and each failure knocks you down a notch. I like that better, because it gives you more variety, and means the nastier the effect, the more chances you get. It provides another way that magic and abilities can interact, too. Demigorgon may have an ability that forces 9 saves to resist, which for most creatures is "You ain't here no more, and your parents and kids aren't feeling so hot, either."

For even more fun, spread these saves over time. This is kind of a monk "quivering palm" effect, where you are now in bad shape, but you get to act for a few rounds before you probably die.

So as an assassin levels, he'd get more and more abilities to knock people down the track--more powerful, more times per day. Some of these will require setup. For example, when he achieves total surprise, he has one shot to knock you way down the track, which means that he will probably kill you immediately thereafter, even if he doesn't quite manage it outright.

If you don't want spamming of lower level effects to be the fast way to kill a bigger target, simply set thresholds so that it can't happen. Perhaps any effect that doesn't force at least 3 saves is simply shrugged off by solos. (Or maybe they get three free successes each round, so only concentrated fire has a shot, and with their saving throws, that's not productive.)

Basically, the problem with SoD is that it is single roll (occasionally supplemented by magic resistance) that encourages "SoD fishing" to bypass large pools of hit points. The way to make it more acceptable is to make it require multiple rolls in a system that discourages spamming. If you are going to require multiple rolls, though, you'd like for the partial success/partial failure to have a clean meaning.

Of course, lowering the number of hit points across the board would also help.

 

[DogBackward]

I think an X/Day ability would work fine. Something like:

Death Attack
With a little time to study your victim, you can make a deadly attack that might slay an enemy instantly. At any time, as a Standard action, you may designate a single enemy that you can see and that is within 30ft. That enemy is Marked for Death until you attack a different enemy, use this ability again, or lose line of sight to the target.

Once per day per Assassin level, you may attempt a Death Attack against any enemy that is Marked for Death. Make a single melee attack against the target as a standard action. If you hit, roll damage for a normal melee attack, with a +1d6 bonus per Assassin level. This attack ignores physical damage reduction. If the damage rolled would be enough to reduce the target to 0 or less HP, the target is slain instantly.

(You can then give Assassins special features that allow them to better fight against targets that are Marked for Death. Or some that increase the "damage" roll and the like.)

This really has that "All or Nothing" vibe, and you can easily protect Solos from this. I'm of the opinion that this should be the base mechanic for any "save or die" mechanic. Then, you can have whatever DnDN's version of Solo monsters will be, and give them a Death Resist number. That is, +X "Phantom HP" that only counts in calculations for death effects. For example, give Elites Death Resist +20, and give Solos Death Resist +50. Grant +10 additional Death Resist per size category above medium. You could give all PC's a certain amount of Death Resist as well, and have certain classes increase that. Fighters gain an additional Death Resist 10, +1 per level, for example, while Barbarians gain +50 Death Resist while raging.

However, while this keeps an Assassin from one-shotting the boss at the start of the encounter, it doesn't prevent them from finishing the boss once it's been weakened. I think that's an important thing to have.

(For the record: the "no damage if it doesn't kill" is, of course, an abstraction. It takes a lot of concentration and skill to strike at the jugular, and if you don't get it just right, your foe will just duck away completely or throw you aside.)

 

[Grydan]

Why would assassins in particular get "save or die" effects and other characters do not?

I'm at a loss as to why you are thinking of this regarding one particular class -- there's no thematic/fluff/conceptual reason that an assassin could kill someone with one hit and a rogue, wizard, or fighter couldn't do the same.

I agree.

If I manage to stick a sword through your brain, you are dead. It doesn't matter whether my character sheet says assassin, rogue, wizard, fighter, or rat-catcher. Sword+brain=death.

Assassins come in two varieties: disposable and career. Disposable assassins are great story devices, but lousy PCs. These are the guys who pose as servants or hide in closets until the opportunity arises to go "Surprise, you are dead! ...and now I am too."

Career are the guys who saw the flaw in that plan and figured out escape routes. These guys earned levels. These guys are PCs. They're not better at killing than a skilled fighter, they're better at finding opportunities to strike against unprepared foes and then getting the heck out of Dodge before anyone notices what they did. The really clever ones arrange for the death to happen after they've left, appearing to be from natural causes, and without anyone knowing they were there in the first place.

Any PC can assassinate someone. Being the Assassin class should be about having the tools to do it well, with well meaning "without anyone knowing you did it". It should not be about being the most lethal person on a battlefield. Assassins don't like battlefields. "Are you crazy? People DIE doing that sort of thing!"

 

[AngryMojo]

I think Mutants and Masterminds handles it in an interesting way. Instead of removing SoD from d20, the entire damage/effect system is effectively SoD. Normally if you hit someone with a damaging effect, they need to make a Toughness save with a DC of 15 + Damage effect, so a handgun with damage 3 would inflict a DC 18 damage save.

If you fail by 1-4, you take a cumulative -1 to further toughness saves.
If you fail by 5-9 you are Dazed and take a cumulative -1 to further toughness saves.
If you fail by 10-14 you are Staggered and take a cumulative -1 to further toughness saves.
If you fail by 15, you're incapacitated.

This means that a character with a +7 Toughness save (The equivalent of a 16 Con fighter in plate) can't be knocked out by that single blow, he needs to be worn down first. A wizard might be in trouble, but even then it's not likely. Meanwhile, minions automatically suffer the worst possible effect when they fail a save, so they're down for the count if they fail by even one.

To stop this from being too swingy and anti-climactic, characters are given Hero Points to improve rolls. They're like rerolls that can't roll below an 11, amongst other things.

I really like the way this works, big bad guys stick around for longer and are very unlikely to drop from a single botched roll while mooks drop like flies.