Balancing Save-or-Die

[Kingreaper]

First of all, I see the point that save-or-die can be anticlimactic. "RAARGH I AM ASMODEUS!" *pew pew* "BLARGH I AM DEAD", not fun, and I think we can all agree on that. But as I pondered this, I realized that this was probably a specific case, that should be addressed by specific rules. Okay, your "solo"-level monsters take megadamage instead of dying. Or a monster you specifically designate might get some effect other than death from save-or-die (damage, perhaps some save ends effect), but every little goblin and elf? Is it really important to save the lives of every monster in a big 5-on-5 combat?

If a little goblin or elf takes megadamage, they die.

If it's "Save or massive damage" on Asmodeus, why not have it be "Save or massive damage" on everyone?

Most things will just die; but you don't have to put in extra rules. Asmodeus has enough HP to take it.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Why would assassins in particular get "save or die" effects and other characters do not?

"Balance" in this case means "everyone can do it".

"That other characters do not" isn't to be found anywhere in my OP, so that's not really part of what I'm talking about. Clearly, there's other characters and effects that save-or-die is relevant for. Assassin was merely the catalyst for my particular thought process, since I imagine sudden death of targets to be a pretty key part of the feel of playing an archetypal murderer. The mechanic is broader than the particular class, but it is certainly in my mind especially relevant for that particular class.

Especially relevant to my mind is the idea that this should be something Assassins as a character class are capable of from level 1. The typical wizardy save-or-die effects and a fighter's vorpal sword are generally higher-level stuff.

There's also the simple issue of ease of access and use.

For the Assassin, I was thinking that they maybe could only do this during a surprise round (this fits the archetype of it being an unexpected, sudden attack while the victim's guard is entirely dropped, that the assassin has time to prepare for). For other effects, I'd imagine they'd be limited by their relevant ability mechanics (vancian spellcasting for wizards, forex).

To me, assassin isnt a combat definition, its a non combat definition. If anything, the good assassin AVOIDS fights. So I link to think of the "instant kill" to be more of a thematic capability than a combat mechanic.

It should not be about being the most lethal person on a battlefield. Assassins don't like battlefields.

Not sure I follow the thought process here. I agree that assassins generally are noncombat, but I still think they should have some way of mechanically instantly killing a given target, given that one of the defining traits of the assassin archetype is that they murder things.

My current idea is something like: "When you hit with an attack during a surprise round, you can declare it a Death Attack, and force the target to make a save or die." Thus, if the assassin can surprise a lone target, she could conceivably end the combat in a single attack, and in a typical 4e-style 5-on-5 skirmish, she can start the combat by just outright eliminating one enemy (saving a LOT of suffering later in the fight).

I agree that the assassin is probably much stronger in the other two "pillars" (exploration: stealth, perception, tracking, lockpicking, trap disarming; interaction: bluff, disguise, insight), but that doesn't mean that the murder stuff has to just be flavor without a mechanical backing, right?

I'm of the opinion that this should be the base mechanic for any "save or die" mechanic.

Can I ask what you like better about your "damage vs. HP" mechanic? It seems like it would encourage you to fight the monster for a few rounds before trying your Death Attack, which doesn't seem to jibe with the idea of assassins sneaking up on you and killing you in your sleep very much.

If it's "Save or massive damage" on Asmodeus, why not have it be "Save or massive damage" on everyone?

Honestly, it just seems overly complicated to me. If the net effect is death, why should I bother with the rolling and the math and the variability? Roll it once, and be done with it. BOOM. From a player psychology stance, it's also very potent, being able to force an effect like that, in a way that rolling a lot of dice and ALMOST killing something because you rolled low...doesn't. If the assassin is a trained murderer, I think they should be able to pretty reliably murder things (without that breaking the game).

 

[RHGreen]

My idea was to have a build of damage dice that you add to by doing certain assassin type activities.

Observing the prey. (Watch them for a week)
Choosing the best staging area. (His bedroom - requiring sneak/pick lock entry)
Poison. (Sleep drug in food prepared by his cook)
Observing guard rotations.
etc

For every successful action you get extra damage dice. If you do enough and get a lot of extra damage dice you can kill him outright - if not, well you may only have to hit a couple of times after that - a sloppy kill but it gets the job done.

 

[Kingreaper]

On a different note though: I like mechanics for the assassin that essentially say "If you reduce an enemy to X or less HP, they instead die"

Phantom bonus damage that only applies if it finishes the fight. Serves two roles:
1) The assassin gets the killing blow most often. Makes sense.
2) When you reach the mopping up stage, it's over quicker.

This shouldn't be a special attack, or power, for the assassin, it should be a constant class feature. Whatever attack you use, if they would end up below X hp, they're dead.

 

[the Jester]

It's generally accepted wisdom that save-or-die is bad bad bad naughty evil bad unpleasant bad verboten no no wrong fun, and that late 3e and early 4e doing away with this mechanic was basically the second coming of Gygax. Okay, hyperbole, but you get my drift: save-or-die baaaaad.

"Generally accepted" by some people and for some playstyles.

Sorry, I can't go along with the basic premise here. I like save or die- as long as it is done right and kept to rare instances.

 

[Kingreaper]

Honestly, it just seems overly complicated to me. If the net effect is death, why should I bother with the rolling and the math and the variability? Roll it once, and be done with it. BOOM.

Then don't make it a damage roll.

Not all damage has to be a roll.


If you have it deal a flat, massive, amount of damage, it either kills them (if they're not a massive guy like Asmodeus) or doesn't.
And you don't need a special rule saying "Monsters with HD equal to your level+x or higher are immune to your death effect, and instead take damage calculated as follows..."

Oh, and as for the almost killing, I'll point at my other post above (I was typing it when you posted this one):
If an assassin "almost" kills someone, they should die. If an assassins target has less than X HP left (based on the assassin level) after any attack, they die.

 

[Oni]

I think you could skip giving assassins a SoD specifically and instead turn to the death by massive damage rule in 3e for inspiration. Since HP don't actually represent physically damage we can tweak this mechanic to mean something else, or a few different things really. You could give run of the mill grunts lower thresholds and more elite creatures like dragons (size) and arch-wizards (wards) and cranky anti-paladins (sheer skill and orneriness) higher ones. You could give them different thresholds based on whether they are aware or not or even other circumstances (maybe a regular threshold and a disadvantaged one).

You could then do things like give Thieves an out of combat damage bonus, Assassins an out of combat bonus and maybe a circumstantial in combat bonus (assuming an assassin is basically a rogue that has given up some of the exploration/social ability for more combat ability), or maybe the ability to combo his smaller damage attacks to count as one for breaching the threshold (assuming multiple attacks are possible). Maybe fighters can attack the lower threshold in combat rather out and vice versa for classes with a Death/Sneak attack.

Upshot of all of this would be that it would make the sneaking into a camp and quietly shanking the sentries a possibility without having to make them low level creatures. It would allow everyone the chance to be able to do it, even wizards, but classes that are better at dealing damage (fighter/barbarians/et c.) would be better at it, and classes designed for such things (thieves/rogues/assassins) would be better still, but on the flip side once the melee starts the combat classes would be able to shine more then it came to reaping through all those grunts and cannon fodder and such.

[edit: PC's, being awesome like they are, simply get better thresholds. Thresholds would be a dial that can be adjusted up or down for deadliness.]

 

[I'm A Banana]

Sorry, I can't go along with the basic premise here. I like save or die- as long as it is done right and kept to rare instances.

If you read the OP a little closer, you might find that the basic premise is actually exactly about the rest of your post: how do you do it right, and what instances are rare enough? How would you design a class whose major thematic ability is to induce enemies to save-or-die to enemies from level 1 like the Assassin?

For context, the 1e Assassin's death attack was basically just that: during surprise, you can force an enemy to essentially save-or-die:

Assassins attack on the same combat tables as thieves do, including back stabbing. However, if they surprise (q.v.) a victim, they may attack on the ASSASSINATION TABLE. This gives a roughly 50% chance of immediately killing the victim; and if this fails, normal damage according to weapon type and strength ability modifiers still accrues to the victim. Thus, if a poisoned weapon is used, the victim must also make the saving throw versus poison or die. The assassin decides which attack mode he or she will use: assassination, back stabbing, or normal melee combat.

If you have it deal a flat, massive, amount of damage, it either kills them (if they're not a massive guy like Asmodeus) or doesn't.
And you don't need a special rule saying "Monsters with HD equal to your level+x or higher are immune to your death effect, and instead take damage calculated as follows..."

Well, that was part of what got me re-thinking massive damage. Should we really have a general rule to cover the corner-cases of monsters we don't want to die instantly, or should we specifically have rules in those monsters so that they don't die instantly, in their own corners? "Immune to death effects," or "Instead of dies, it is slowed (save ends)," or some such array of multiple effects allows us to deal with each corner case individually, while still preserving the psychological high of making an enemy's fate depend on a single die roll.

 

[Mishihari Lord]

Why would assassins in particular get "save or die" effects and other characters do not?

I'm at a loss as to why you are thinking of this regarding one particular class -- there's no thematic/fluff/conceptual reason that an assassin could kill someone with one hit and a rogue, wizard, or fighter couldn't do the same.

Tradition. The assassination table from (I think) AD&D DMG.

 

[Kingreaper]

Well, that was part of what got me re-thinking massive damage. Should we really have a general rule to cover the corner-cases of monsters we don't want to die instantly, or should we specifically have rules in those monsters so that they don't die instantly, in their own corners? "Immune to death effects," or "Instead of dies, it is slowed (save ends)," or some such array of multiple effects allows us to deal with each corner case individually, while still preserving the psychological high of making an enemy's fate depend on a single die roll.

How does the massive flat damage fail to achieve that high?


Additionally: At level 1, a troll shouldn't go down easily to your assassin. He's a match for your whole party.

At level 10, that troll should go down to your death attack.

So, does that troll have a "doesn't get killed" effect, rendering SoD inneffective (which seems weird at level 10) or does it lack it (which is strange at level 1)

Sure, for Asmodeus the answer is easy. He has it, because he's never going to be a mere inconvenience. But for everything lower level than him... what happens once you outlevel them?

If you stick to massive, flat, damage, the system is simple. As your flat damage goes up, you hit the point where it gets instantly killed, due to your "Finishing Blow" class feature.