Balancing Save-or-Die

[Mishihari Lord]

The inclusion of save or die effects in a game with hp has always seemed wonky to me. If hp represent an abstract ability to avoid being hurt, why would that not apply to petrification, poison, polymorph, etc etc?

The way I would prefer to see such effects is that polymorph, for example, does X damage. If the target is reduced to less than 0, rather than becoming dead he becomes subject to whatever shape the attacker is trying to force on him.

Here's a way to apply this to an assassination ability: Say the assassin normally does X damage with an attack. The assassin uses his assassination ability and the target misses his save. If 4 * X damage would bring the target below 0 then the target is instantly dead. If 4 * X damage would not bring the target below 0 then there is no effect.

(The above was off the top of my head - it's not perfect, but I think it could be the start of something I'd be willing to use in-game)

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Another way to do it is to monkey directly with how saving throws work for such all or nothing effects. Specifically, for the SoD, give them a big bonus to saving throws, by default. Make it big enough that it is fairly hard for a reasonably competent character of that level to fail--maybe +6 to +10 or so.

So you hit someone with a fireball, they use their normal save. You hit them with the old version of dimension door, and try to send the 360 feet straight up, they get a +10 to their save.

The big advantage of this method is then how the attacker goes about getting around this bonus can be specific to each attack (or type of attack). Maybe some spells can knock 3 points off the save for every round the caster spends preparing/aiming/juicing it before launch (taking their move or minor actions, not their standard). When he thinks he has it low enough, he takes his shot.

The assassin obviously uses some of the techniques discussed by others above. The more surprise, the better the setup, etc. the more he knocks off the save.

In return for having to do this, you allow not only for the bonus to be erased, but with enough preparation, it can be turned into a penalty, for as much as the original bonus. Try to disintergrate a dragon in one round? Probably ain't happening. Get a bead on it early, while the party fights for five rounds, and you do other stuff to help? Now we're talking! Plus, in those kind of situations, it lets the one doing the setup worry about the best time.

 

[Grydan]

Not sure I follow the thought process here. I agree that assassins generally are noncombat, but I still think they should have some way of mechanically instantly killing a given target, given that one of the defining traits of the assassin archetype is that they murder things.

My current idea is something like: "When you hit with an attack during a surprise round, you can declare it a Death Attack, and force the target to make a save or die." Thus, if the assassin can surprise a lone target, she could conceivably end the combat in a single attack, and in a typical 4e-style 5-on-5 skirmish, she can start the combat by just outright eliminating one enemy (saving a LOT of suffering later in the fight).

I agree that the assassin is probably much stronger in the other two "pillars" (exploration: stealth, perception, tracking, lockpicking, trap disarming; interaction: bluff, disguise, insight), but that doesn't mean that the murder stuff has to just be flavor without a mechanical backing, right?



Can I ask what you like better about your "damage vs. HP" mechanic? It seems like it would encourage you to fight the monster for a few rounds before trying your Death Attack, which doesn't seem to jibe with the idea of assassins sneaking up on you and killing you in your sleep very much.



Honestly, it just seems overly complicated to me. If the net effect is death, why should I bother with the rolling and the math and the variability? Roll it once, and be done with it. BOOM. From a player psychology stance, it's also very potent, being able to force an effect like that, in a way that rolling a lot of dice and ALMOST killing something because you rolled low...doesn't. If the assassin is a trained murderer, I think they should be able to pretty reliably murder things (without that breaking the game).

The defining archetype of the assassin is not simply "they murder things", it's "they murder things that they catch unaware".

Walking up to someone who is in the middle of a fight for their life is not assassination. It's combat, and the assassin should be playing by the same combat rules everyone else is.

We have a set of game mechanics for how to kill things that are trying to resist being killed. It's AC, defences/saves, and hit points.

We have a set of game mechanics for how to be better at attacking things that are distracted or unaware of your presence. Things like combat advantage and sneak attack. These interact with the above system, by giving you advantages within it, without bypassing it altogether.

We have a set of game mechanics for how to kill things that are unable to resist being killed, like sneaking up and killing someone in their sleep. It's coup de grace.

I do not see the need for an additional mechanic. Especially one that obsoletes the primary combat resolution mechanics.

 

[Sunseeker]

Save-or-die mechanics should be rare and powerful.

The gogon's gaze turns you to stone. There's a good save or die mechanic.

I think your main problem with the assassin is thinking of what they accomplish, instead of how they go about doing it. Comparing to real life, an assassin has to carefully study their enemy, sneak up on them, poison their food, lure them into some unsafe location. All the while they have to remain covert and must work hard to keep the blame of the inevitable death off their hands.

No assassin is going to be able to be tossing around precision strikes to the jugular/heart/ect in the middle of combat. Especially if it's against a foe that the assassin was unprepared for. I mean he MIGHT get the best of the evil wizard during combat that the group has been trailing for months, he might be able to get one of the guards at an outpost. But he's not going to be tossing around save-or-die on every opponent.

For the assassin to get a save-or-die strike, I think he'd need to fulfill at least these 3 requirements:
Familiarity with target to a very high level. This means they have to know the weak points of the species, their day-to-day activities, ect...
Subtlety: the assassin must go unnoticed at all times, either through subterfuge and disguise or good-old-fashioned stealth. No "stealthing" during the daytime, gotta have shadows, corners, outcroppings, ect..
Precision: the assassin must be able to deliver their killing blow exactly at a certain time, at a certain point without mistake.

Honestly, I think that those considerations are too high to allow the assassin to have any sort of save-or-die powers or abilities on a regular basis. And as above, if a single class, or all classes are tossing out save-or-die mechanics on a regular basis, I think it's going to seriously kill the awesome power that such mechanics are supposed to hold.

 

[LostSoul]

So, this is a thread for thinking about the theoretically impossible. How is it possible to keep save-or-die/instant-death/one-hit-kill mechanics in the game without making it unbalanced?

I had a thought - maybe you'd make save or die only available after you've successfully done something else.

For magic you'd need - the true name, a lock of hair, nail clippings, a favoured possession, etc. before you could cast a save or die spell. That would be pretty similar to slipping poison into someone's food or stabbing them in bed.

So save or die wouldn't be something that you'd do in a regular combat - "Oh look four hobgoblins SAVE OR DIE". You'd have to plan and adventure to set up the conditions. Strategic vs tactical?

Anyway, it's a thought.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

I had a thought - maybe you'd make save or die only available after you've successfully done something else.

For magic you'd need - the true name, a lock of hair, nail clippings, a favoured possession, etc. before you could cast a save or die spell. That would be pretty similar to slipping poison into someone's food or stabbing them in bed.

So save or die wouldn't be something that you'd do in a regular combat - "Oh look four hobgoblins SAVE OR DIE". You'd have to plan and adventure to set up the conditions. Strategic vs tactical?

Anyway, it's a thought.

Good examples. Those are the kind of things I was going for with the mechanics in my last reply. Do what you need to do (for that particular attack), get the saving throw down to the point where it might succeed.

The "truename" bit would be a great way to model the kind of things you have to do ahead of time to take it from "probably fail" to "probably succeed" in one round, once the action starts.

 

[Sunseeker]

I had a thought - maybe you'd make save or die only available after you've successfully done something else.

For magic you'd need - the true name, a lock of hair, nail clippings, a favoured possession, etc. before you could cast a save or die spell. That would be pretty similar to slipping poison into someone's food or stabbing them in bed.

Anyway, it's a thought.

I'd say "true name" might be a little meaningless on your average human. Of course if you're using save-or-die to waste the local bandit, well... I do like the voodoo-esche nature of requiring a personal belonging or a piece of the target. That might even be something that could reasonably be worked into combat, perhaps something you could pull off while grappling your opponent.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

SoD doesn't need balancing. Saving throws, do. Saves should scale only with level, and perhaps magic items such as rings of protection. DCs should be static. Bring back the saving throws of AD&D and SoDs and saves in general are balanced.

 

[Quickleaf]

Yeah, I think the sticking point is using assassination (as a SoD) against named enemies (elites and solos in 4e). And it's precisely these sorts of enemies that assassin players like to go for. I mean the whole play style of the assassin is "over before it began" - a good aligned assassin is *all* about taking out high value targets quickly to spare needless suffering. That's the principle behind assassins in D&D, right?

So if you have a killing method which circumvents HP, then certain NPCs/monsters need a defense against it. Otherwise the assassin (or any player SoD effect) becomes horribly overpowered...or I suppose you're demanding a playstyle where the DM has no named NPCs. That seems like the crux of the thought experiment.

 

[Kynn]

How'sabout something simple like,

Assassin class feature: During a surprise round, you can make a coup-de-grace attack against a surprised creature.