Balor Down!

[Iron Sky]

Granted, based on what the players are saying there was a perfect storm of advantages in the party's favor, but I'd still expect that much damage, (while low) to erode the resources of a party fairly quickly.

This Balor was stupid enough to stand toe to toe and just attack with something that has got it weakened and dazed. Particularly when it has the ability to fly 12 (and if need be blow an AP to move another 12, I can never remember if you can blow an AP when you are dazed). It should have been able to shake the paladin's mark, come back, and rape the party. The majority of the damage it was taking was due to starting it's turn next to the ranger... demons aren't stupid, it should move.

Basically, the Balor took about three turns to get our Pally to bloodied (when the cleric healed him or, once the Cleric ran out of minor-action heals, he Laid on Hands). 3 turns x 4 heals = the approximate 12-14 (don't remember precisely) turns it took to take it down. It wasn't the original 20 turns that I originally thought.

As for standing toe-to-toe, the DM told us that he read "the Balor never reatreats and will fight until dead" to mean it didn't retreat at all, ever. He used his first two APs in the first two rounds and so didn't have any by round 3-4 when the Balor might have realized that it was being effectively countered by some insignificant mortals.

I'm actually curious on what was supposed to happen. Given the GM knew the fight was supposed to be unwinnable, were the PCs supposed to surrender to the Balor for the plot? IME as a GM, that has never worked as planned. Sounds like it was a fun encounter though.

He said he was expecting us to run and hide down the side-tunnels the Grimlocks had been pouring out of since those tunnels were too small for the Balor to pursue. Unfortunately, by the time the 3rd wave of minions rolled around, we figured we needed to collapse those tunnels to stop endless minion-waves from pouring out. While the Warlock was teleport-ganking that last wave, the rogue, cleric, and my ranger were collapsing our escape routes...

Heck if you like that approach, just make 1 hit = bloodied minion, and the second hit = dead minion. That way you get to keep the bookkeeping low too (assuming you use minis and bloodied markers).

That would be the simple way of explaining it. I tend to be mechanically explicit with my houserules since WotC's occasional lack in that area causes some serious dissention.

Also, on a crit the minions die and when I have minions that have vulnerability, damage of their vulnerability type also insta-kills them.

My group had a similar situation...

Cool. Yeah, sometimes these "too high" level encounters can make for awesome, intense gaming, especially if the players know they probably shouldn't be able to win the fight. It pushes the party to their limits to find that they can do the "impossible."

I think the definite key in this fight was the balor didn't use his flame whip to pull the party out of the healing zone. Once the balor is bloodied, assuming he is going to hit with all his attacks (and with those attack bonuses its a decent assumption), a player would take 39 damage + ongoing 5 fire do to the attacks and the aura. I don't see the paladin taking that for too long if he's pulled out of the zone, and once he's down certain justice wears off, and the rest of the party is mincemeat.

I agree. If the Pally had missed with Certain Justice, the Cleric's Consecrated ground was disrupted, or my ranger hadn't been there for the fight, I don't see how we could have won. It was all three together that made it doable.

Just noticed these in combination. Consecrated Ground only heals bloodied allies...

Now, as long as the Paladin stayed in the Consecrated Ground zone this wouldn't have really mattered, because he regains HP when unconscious at the start of his turn, so he can just get up and attack every round. While weakened, the Balor can't outright kill him from 18 HP without an action point (which it might have already used early in the fight) or a lucky critial.

That is another good notice. Our Cleric never noticed that apparently and I never thought to look. It wouldn't have changed the outcome of the fight much, except we would have been using up more healing on the paladin on the risk that he gets dropped by the whip and a coup-de-grace from the sword while he's down...

If the Paladin had taken Astral Weapon instead of Champion of Order, the Cleric had taken Spiritual Weapon (itself quite strong) instead of Consecrated Ground, the Ranger hadn't power-swapped for Rain of Steel, and we lower the PC stats to 22 point buy, the Balor will probably win this fight if it uses decent tactics.

Yeah, this was probably just "the stars aligning" to make the fight winnable. That's part of what made it exciting - we knew we shouldn't be able to take this thing on, but our party was built just right to do so. I think, everything else being the same, we would still have won if our PCs were point buy, it would have taken a few more rounds. The Pally still had a few Lay on Hands and a pile of healing pots. As mentioned earlier, we're strictly point-buy in all 4e games from here on out.

 

[OchreJelly]

He said he was expecting us to run and hide down the side-tunnels the Grimlocks had been pouring out of since those tunnels were too small for the Balor to pursue. Unfortunately, by the time the 3rd wave of minions rolled around, we figured we needed to collapse those tunnels to stop endless minion-waves from pouring out. While the Warlock was teleport-ganking that last wave, the rogue, cleric, and my ranger were collapsing our escape routes...

I love it! That must have been one of those classic GM moments where he must have thought, "oh, um wasn't expecting them to do that. Well shoot..."

Nonetheless, it added to the uberness of the fight, having to collapse tunnels while big-bad was in route.

 

[Sanzuo]

I was tired, alright? It was 2 am when we started that fight. I want a rematch damn it! I will have my revenge you bastards.
______________/______________

 

[Iron Sky]

This just in: the Cleric wasn't using Consecrated Ground, he was using the Radiant Servant Level 12 Utility: Healing Sun. For what it's worth.

The Balor did start inside it and did shift out of that zone at least.

 

[guivre]

B

As for standing toe-to-toe, the DM told us that he read "the Balor never reatreats and will fight until dead" to mean it didn't retreat at all, ever. He used his first two APs in the first two rounds and so didn't have any by round 3-4 when the Balor might have realized that it was being effectively countered by some insignificant mortals.

Actually it says 'rarely retreats' and I wouldn't expect it to retreat. I would however expect it to take advantage of every tactical ability it had, including movement.

Despite what I consider some broken powers (though clearly not everyone does) this was a particularly stupid Balor. In general, any intelligent creature should recognize such a blatant tactical disadvantage and take measures to change the situation. I do feel better about game balance at that level considering the Balor didn't "try".

This is all in regards to encounters versus higher level mobs (and the math at large). In the end as long as the group enjoyed itself that's all that counts.

 

[Plane Sailing]

If I understand correctly, the Paladin could have had the Hospitaler paragon path and shut down a single opponent just as effectively (perhaps even more effectively).

 

[Stalker0]

If I understand correctly, the Paladin could have had the Hospitaler paragon path and shut down a single opponent just as effectively (perhaps even more effectively).

Yeah but we already know the hospitalier's broken

The hospitalier is overpowered in a passive way, which is why it does not get called out as much. Its similar to the assault vs shielding swordmage.

As a defending mechanic, the shielding swordmage is FAR superior. But its also much more passive than getting to teleport in an hit stuff, so it doesn't look as strong.

The hospitalier is the most powerful of the Paladin PP's in my opinion, but its revolves around healing and "passive" benefits, and so doesn't get some of the attention like the other ones do.