Balor Down!

[Sanzuo]

How many player deaths?

With two attacks per round, the aura, ongoing damage, and most likely missing on a 1 I'd imagine focusing on a single target, most likely the rogue, would have resulted in at least one player death. Throw in Death Burst when he goes down and a player death should be almost guaranteed.

You'd THINK so, but no. No one died. Iron Sky forgot to mention the cleric having a zone up that healed each party member 18 hit points at the end of their turn. Because of the mark from the paladin the Belor definitely focused fire on him but, combined with the cleric's healing and the Belor being weakened the paladin only went bloodied about 2 times during the fight. The damage to everyone else was negligible.

When I set up the encounter I never even considered the party killing it a possibility. Not until the paladin hit with Certain Justice. Then I thought; "Hmm... sh*t."

Edit: Come to think of it... I had a similar thing happen to another group back in 3.0e. I had them go against a Red Wyrm, they were severely outclassed and getting their asses kicked. The wizard had some kind of spell emulation thingy that let him cast priest spells in place of his wizard spells. So he queued up a Harm spell and went for it. He needed an 18 or better on a d20 do beat the dragon's spell resistance. He ran in, made his touch attack, rolled for spell penitration and came up with an 18. Before that I had never seen all my players get up and start dancing and high-fiving each other in the middle of the session. With 3 hp left the dragon soon fell.

 

[Iron Sky]

Yeah, sounds pretty awesome.

How long in real time did that 20 round (2 minute) fight take? Just curious (i.e., this is not a leading question).

The fight took somewhere around two and a half hours or so. Once we'd burned through all our encounters and daillies, our turns only took almost no time(doesn't take long when you miss with 90% of your attacks).

How many player deaths?

With two attacks per round, the aura, ongoing damage, and most likely missing on a 1 I'd imagine focusing on a single target, most likely the rogue, would have resulted in at least one player death. Throw in Death Burst when he goes down and a player death should be almost guaranteed.

There were no player deaths. No one but the Paladin was even bloodied until the big explosion at the end - my Ranger went bloodied until the end of his turn when he zone-healed back out of it. The cleric's daily (healing everyone 18 at the end of their turns if they were in the zone) almost totally mitigated it's aura.

It focused fire on the Paladin the whole time since he had it challenged the whole time. Aside from its aura, it didn't attack anyone else. And it actually could miss the Paladin on a two: +30 to hit vs Paladin's AC 33(base 31, +1 vs large creature, +1 due to another zone he dropped).

I hadn't looked up Certain Justice before. Pretty devastating.

What could the balor have done to get the paladin's mark off of him?

What, in general, are some good techniques for losing a paladin's mark?

Yeah, what Mustrum Ridcully said: there was pretty much no way the Balor could get the Challenge off of him.

The one thing we talked about after the session (before everyone went home to pass out) was that the Balor could have moved away for a round, then used his whip to drag us (or at least the Pally) out of the Cleric's healing zone. We might still have gotten it, but it probably would have taken alot longer since we'd have to run back and forth to the Cleric's healing zone every few rounds to heal up from the aura.

Did you guys use aid another? When your only hitting on a 19-20...that's a perfect time to start having the team bulk aid, at least to get your big dailies in there.

You know, that probably would have been smart, especially, as you say, the first few rounds when we were unloading everything we had at it. Still, after the first 6-8 rounds when we were all out of encounters and daillies:

My Stormwarden was doing minimum 35 damage around. It would have been more if the Balor hadn't shifted his resistance to cold.

The paladin was doing at least 6 (he has Hammer Rythm and got 1 attack + 1 counter-attack when it attacked him).

The Daggermaster could actually hit on a 16 with his Piercing Strike - and he had permanent CA from it's perma-daze so when he did hit he got his Sneak Attack.

The Warlock was getting two attacks a round - one from Tendrils of Thuban and one from whichever at-will he was using (changing back and forth between Eyebite and Eldritch Blast in an attempt to pinpoint it's exact Ref and Will).

So, we were doing at least 41 damage a round and every few rounds someone would get a crit(since that was the only way alot of our attacks could hit him).

How did it not feel like a grind if you guys were only able to hit occasionally?

What Jack99 said. Even though, as it was, there was pretty much no way it was going to win until it burned through all 15 of our Paladin's healing surges(of which he only used 4 during the fight btw), we knew we were beating something that should have been way out of our league. Taking on a level+12 elite after dispatching 60 level 14 minions made us feel pretty badass.


Edit: Demi-ninja'd by Sanzuo...

Also Edit:

In a mostly unrelated side note, my ranger also got to use Blade Cascade for the first time in a previous fight. It was sick, especially since the enemy had cold vulnerability 10. I think with one Armor Splinter hit + 5 Blade Cascade hits, I did about 200-250 damage that round...

 

[guivre]

A few more questions, not nitpicking, honestly interested in the math.

The fight took somewhere around two and a half hours or so. Once we'd burned through all our encounters and daillies, our turns only took almost no time(doesn't take long when you miss with 90% of your attacks).




There were no player deaths. No one but the Paladin was even bloodied until the big explosion at the end - my Ranger went bloodied until the end of his turn when he zone-healed back out of it. The cleric's daily (healing everyone 18 at the end of their turns if they were in the zone) almost totally mitigated it's aura.

It focused fire on the Paladin the whole time since he had it challenged the whole time. Aside from its aura, it didn't attack anyone else. And it actually could miss the Paladin on a two: +30 to hit vs Paladin's AC 33(base 31, +1 vs large creature, +1 due to another zone he dropped).

The Balor should have been making 2 attacks a a round. There's no reason for it not to use "Fire and Lightning" to get both powers off, adding the whip attack in every round not only increases it's damage output, but adds ongoing damage that is not reduced for being weakened. You're also stating that the Balor had +30 to hit the Paladin's AC, it would have +32 to hit AC with the lightning sword, and +30 to hit the Pallys reflex.

You know, that probably would have been smart, especially, as you say, the first few rounds when we were unloading everything we had at it. Still, after the first 6-8 rounds when we were all out of encounters and daillies:

My Stormwarden was doing minimum 35 damage around. It would have been more if the Balor hadn't shifted his resistance to cold.

The paladin was doing at least 6 (he has Hammer Rythm and got 1 attack + 1 counter-attack when it attacked him).

The Daggermaster could actually hit on a 16 with his Piercing Strike - and he had permanent CA from it's perma-daze so when he did hit he got his Sneak Attack.

The Warlock was getting two attacks a round - one from Tendrils of Thuban and one from whichever at-will he was using (changing back and forth between Eyebite and Eldritch Blast in an attempt to pinpoint it's exact Ref and Will).

So, we were doing at least 41 damage a round and every few rounds someone would get a crit(since that was the only way alot of our attacks could hit him).

I'm a little confused, how could you put out 41 damage a round with a 5% hit rate? Also it's clear that the Daggermaster could benefit from crit dice but what about the other characters, they all had exactly +22 to hit? If they had any less they don't get max damage.

What Jack99 said. Even though, as it was, there was pretty much no way it was going to win until it burned through all 15 of our Paladin's healing surges(of which he only used 4 during the fight btw), we knew we were beating something that should have been way out of our league. Taking on a level+12 elite after dispatching 60 level 14 minions made us feel pretty badass.

The Pally had 15 healing surges, was there an extended rest prior to this? I'd be surprised if the total number of healing surges a character has plays a role when talking about a single battle. I'd expect there to be far less than 15 ways for a party of that level to allow a character to use a surge.

This last bit is the reason why I'm asking these questions though. If there was truly "pretty much no way it was going to win" I'd consider that horribly broken. Granted it's a brute not a solo, and it's a level 27 monster, not a level 27 encounter but it's still a level 22 encounter (25 if the minions were included). I would expect it the other way around. A battle with any creature 1/3 of the way through the maximum possible levels should result in a TPK unless there are extraordinary circumstances.

I'm glad you guys had fun but the math makes me sad.

 

[blargney the second]

I'm a little confused, how could you put out 41 damage a round with a 5% hit rate?

Between Stormwarden and Scimitar Dance, a well-built ranger can put out a lot of auto-damage even when he always misses. I sincerely doubt they're doing the math wrong, for what it's worth.
-blarg

 

[Dragonblade]

I'm a little confused, how could you put out 41 damage a round with a 5% hit rate?

There are powers and paths that do auto-damage even on a miss. For example, the Stormwarden path for Rangers can do quite a bit of auto-damage every round that isn't tied to the power they actually use to attack.

In another example, I play a 12th level wizard in another game and whenever I can't hit a tough enemy, I bust out Flaming Sphere and just park it next to the enemy. Due to my stats and magic items (Staff of Ruin FTW!), they take 1d4+14 points of Fire damage just by being next to it every round. I don't have to roll anything. If the monster moves away, I just move my sphere to follow. That still leaves me with a Standard action every round to try to nail it with other powers.

 

[guivre]

Between Stormwarden and Scimitar Dance, a well-built ranger can put out a lot of auto-damage even when he always misses. I sincerely doubt they're doing the math wrong, for what it's worth.
-blarg

That's why I'm asking

Some of the math is wrong, not that that necessarily means it was wrong in play, only in the the recounting.

Scimitar Dance is only going to do your DEX modifier in damage so at that level 7 or 8 damage at the probable high end. Plus he mentioned that the damage would be more if the Balor hadn't used it's variable resistance to counter cold. That puts the auto-damage (if that's what it is) somewhere between 35 and 55.

I'd like to see how you build a character that can dish out 55 damage on a round when they miss if that's indeed what we're talking about. Edit: Another question, are there magic items that directly improve stats? I thought they did away with that.

To me this entire battle indicates a serious breakdown in the system at those levels. I'd like to see how this feat was accomplished because ultimately it factors in to my decision on whether or not to continue with 4E.

 

[Elric]

I hadn't looked up Certain Justice before. Pretty devastating.

What could the balor have done to get the paladin's mark off of him?

What, in general, are some good techniques for losing a paladin's mark?

Certain Justice is way too strong for an Encounter power (it's from the Paladin Champion of Order Paragon path in the PH). However, Paladins are a pretty weak class and need their awesome Paragon paths to stay competitive. The trouble is that Certain Justice is much too strong and completely changes the dynamics of fights involving elites/solos. This fight is an example of that.

Potential house rule:

Certain Justice (Champion of Order—Paladin Paragon Path Encounter 11): Change the second sentence to “If the target is marked by you, it is also weakened and dazed until the end of your next turn.” Change damage to [W] + Strength modifier.

Champion of Order—In Defense of Order (Feature, level 11): Change the first sentence to add: “When you are adjacent to the target of your divine challenge, the target provokes an opportunity attack from you if it shifts or makes an attack that does not include you as a target.”

Reasoning: Certain Justice is too powerful as written, and completely changes the dynamics of fights against solos. Changing its effect to until the end of the next turn greatly weakens the power, so adding to damage seems fair. Changing In Defense of Order so that the target also provokes opportunity attacks on a shift makes this feature stronger and more thematic, and helps compensate for the change to Certain Justice.

 

[Elric]

That's why I'm asking

Some of the math is wrong, not that that necessarily means it was wrong in play, only in the the recounting.

Scimitar Dance is only going to do your DEX modifier in damage so at that level 7 or 8 damage at the probable high end. Plus he mentioned that the damage would be more if the Balor hadn't used it's variable resistance to counter cold. That puts the auto-damage (if that's what it is) somewhere between 35 and 55.

I'd like to see how you build a character that can dish out 55 damage on a round when they miss if that's indeed what we're talking about. I'd love to see the character build that can achieve this.

Stormwarden at level 11 gets to deal Dex damage to an adjacent enemy at the end of his turn. Then Twin Strike + Scimitar Dance lets him deal at least Dex damage two more times. At level 15, I don't see how you'd get to 35 for a ranger. That implies a very high +7 Dex bonus, the above, and two more attacks to deal Dex damage.

If you've multiclassed fighter and taken a stance with auto-damage to adjacent enemies (e.g., Rain of Steel), that might explain it, if you have very high static modifiers to damage. Encounter-long auto-damage powers with high static mods (like the Flaming Sphere + Staff of Ruin example mentioned above) are themselves on the borderline for an acceptable power level, because they deal much more damage over the course of the fight than comparable dailies.

I'm also not sure how the Paladin had two weapon attacks in a round; True Nemesis, the Paladin 15 daily, is the only power I see with an effect like this, and it's an implement attack, not a weapon attack.

The reason the party was able to win this fight was Certain Justice plus the Cleric zone healing, which was almost certainly Consecrated Ground, the level 5 daily. Both powers are clearly too strong. In the grading daily powers thread, keterys gives Consecrated Ground the only "A+" rating among level 5 daily powers, which means:

A+ powers in particular are at a dangerous balance level. If designing a new power and it is on par, or better, than an A+, most likely you should go back to the drawing board and tweak some things.

 

[guivre]

Stormwarden at level 11 gets to deal Dex damage to an adjacent enemy at the end of his turn. Then Twin Strike + Scimitar Dance lets him deal at least Dex damage two more times. At level 15, I don't see how you'd get to 35 for a ranger. That implies a very high +7 Dex bonus, the above, and two more attacks to deal Dex damage.

If you've multiclassed fighter and taken a stance with auto-damage to adjacent enemies (e.g., Rain of Steel), that might explain it, if you have very high static modifiers to damage. Encounter-long auto-damage powers with high static mods (like the Flaming Sphere + Staff of Ruin example mentioned above) are themselves on the borderline for an acceptable power level, because they deal much more damage over the course of the fight than comparable dailies.

I'm also not sure how the Paladin had two weapon attacks in a round; True Nemesis, the Paladin 15 daily, is the only power I see with an effect like this, and it's an implement attack, not a weapon attack.

The reason the party was able to win this fight was Certain Justice plus the Cleric zone healing, which was almost certainly Consecrated Ground, the level 5 daily. Both powers are clearly too strong. In the grading daily powers thread, keterys gives Consecrated Ground the only "A+" rating among level 5 daily powers, which means:

This is why I'd like to see the actual builds and how this all worked. The house rule above seems reasonable.

I have to say that I like 4E but there seems to be a lot less thought put into some of the math than I'd like.

 

[Iron Sky]

I was guessing on the hit-bonuses against our Pally. I think the DM might have read it wrong as being against AC instead of Ref or something. It shouldn't have been able to miss except on a 1.

The Balor was making two attacks a round, but it was weakened so they did half damage. It rolled a 1 on its whip attacks(so no ongoing fire) about 3 rounds. Those were pretty much the only attacks it missed with, aside from rolling a 1 against the Cleric when it died and exploded.


After talking with my roomies(one the DM, one the Pally's player), the fight was actually more like 15 rounds(so, about 12 after the Balor showed up) and lasted about 2 hours.


Elric is pretty much right on on all counts.

The Cleric did have Consecrated Ground + he used Beacon of Hope earlier.

The Pally did do True Nemesis. We were doing his counter-attack incorrectly since it is an implement and not weapon attack. So, he should have done 20-30 or so less damage over the course of the fight (so, the Balor might have lasted another round).

My Ranger has 24 Dex (+7 mod) and was doing Twin Strike, plus 7 more at the end of my turn. The Cold Vulnerable thing only would have mattered when I hit, since, according to our interpretation of the rules, the damage dealt from Scimitar Dance isn't typed... I'm still not totally sold on that, but we spent an hour discussing it months ago and that's what we figured out. I don't remember the exact argument.

My ranger is also multiclassed Fighter to get Rain of Steel. My damage with that was 1d8+7 base, +6 for the Pally's Wrath of the Gods.

So: Twin Strike 14 damage + 7 for Stormwarden = 21 on my turn. At the start if its turn 1d8+13 = 14 minimum damage. And technically, it should have been 15 minimum damage since I have Gauntlets of Destruction. So, 36 to 42 damage a round from my Stormwarden even when I missed(which ended up being 95% of the time).

The Cleric is (mostly) optimized for healing, my ranger is optimized for dealing damage, especially for consistant damage.


I agree that Certain Justice makes-or-breaks solo/elite fights. Our DM was actually more annoyed at the Warlock's killing 30 minions in a round as 15 free actions that he was about Certain Justice...

As for the other characters, they didn't all have exactly +22 to hit, but all had CA and the Warlock and Rogue were targetting Ref. Our Warlock, for example, had +21 to hit with Eldritch Blast(Base +18, +2 for CA, +1 for Prime Shot).

The Pally had a total of +22 to hit and my Ranger had +22 to hit with his main hand, +21 off-hand. I rolled three crits during the fight, all with my main hand (one on a daily).


The Pally has a base of 15 healing surges. We did get an extended rest before the fight, but we failed a skill challenge three times and all lost 3 healing surges. So, when he went into the fight he had 12 out of 15. When we eneded the fight he had 8 out of 15.


It was a level 25 encounter. In the end it was the following that made it doable:
1) The Feylock teleport ganking all the minions in a round per wave.
2) The Pally hitting with Certain Justice.
3) The Cleric's Consecrated Ground.
4) My ranger's 36 minimum damage a round.

Without the first one, we would have still had minions around when it showed up and might not have been able to focus-fire on it.

With any of the last 3 missing, I don't think we could have beaten it. Daze and Weakened + 18 healing per turn + decent guaranteed damage + focus fire was the winning formula.