D&D (2024) Bard Playtest discussion

Chaosmancer

Legend
I agree with this completely. I'd love to have a bard with no spells, but supernatural songs that have unique effects. If they are plucking on the universal strings if creation, the magic should be distinct.

I made a bard yesterday using the new rules. Looking at the abilities, I realized I could make a witch. I took human and gave my character the magic initiative feat (primal). I took the spells, Shillelagh, guidance and Hunter's Mark. (this gives me a magic witch's staff, and the ability to know best place to hit hard via Hunter's Mark).

I created midwife background and took Healer feat and herbalism tool kit. From bard, Dancing Lights, Vicious mockery, Sleep and Hex as default prepped spells. The inspiration dice work, as my witch shouts advice and quickie cures. At 2nd level, Healing Word works well. The abilities from Lore bard don't require much refluffing to make them witchy.

The instruments are bit odd but I took really basic ones. I'll probably mostly ignore them, other than my witch has musical talent. I did not take perform. The saving throws aren't quite right but not a huge deal. If a player came to me with this character, I'd allow them to change the Dex save.

Yes, I did take racial and background features to push the witch motif, but this shouldn't have worked so well. It is really easy to drown out the bard flavour.

Why shouldn't it? I could trivially do the same thing with a wizard, sorcerer, cleric, druid... if you build a background and take feats to get a specific flavor, then ignore the things that give you a different flavor, then you are going to end up with the same result.

Also, well.... this is the same bard, you realize that right?

Take out your PHB and look. Other than songs of rest and the lose of countercharm, these are all identical abilities in most respects. Lore bard only lost access to +2 spells, and they gained more stuff to work with inspiration and cutting words, they actually became MORE bardic.

It isn't like 5e bards had some massive array of song abilities that they removed. This is basically what the Bard has always been.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
And still doesn't explain why I must assume they are resistant to fire. Why can't I assume they have no vulnerabilities? Why is assuming the baseline metagaming? Just because you don't like it?
People don't have to assume any resistances or vulnerabilities. If you want to assume they have none, go for it.
Then, just like Winter Wolves aren't Wolves (they are two different things) these would be Fire Wolves. And, yeah, I'd assume wolves with embers falling from their fur and breathing fire are immune to fire. Why is this a bad thing?
They are wolves. Wolves come in varieties.
See, now I'm going to ACTUALLY meta-game and read the Demon statblocks. Tell me if you notice something
I do!
Balor: Resistant - cold, lightning, nonmagical weapon damage. Immune - fire, poison
Barlgure: Resistant - Cold, fire, lighting. Immune - Poison
Chasme - Resistant - Cold, Fire, Lightning. Immune - Poison
Dretch - Resistant - Cold, Fire, Lightning Immune - Poison
Glabrezu - Resistant - Cold, Fire, Lightning, nonmagical weapon damage. Immune - Poison
Goristro - Resistant - Cold, Fire, Lightning, nonmagical weapon damage. Immune - Poison
Hezrou - Resistant - Cold, Fire, Lightning, nonmagical weapon damage. Immune - Poison
Mane - Resistant - Cold, Fire, Lightning. Immune - Poison
Marilith - Resistant - Cold, Fire, Lightning, nonmagical weapon damage. Immune - Poison
Nalfeshnee - Resistant - Cold, Fire, Lightning, nonmagical weapon damage. Immune - Poison
Quasit - Resistant - Cold, Fire, Lightning. Immune - Poison
Shadow Demon - Resistant - Acid, Fire, Necrotic, Thunder, nonmagical weapon damage. Immune - Poison, Cold, Lightning. Vulnerable - Radiant
Vrock - Resistant - Cold, Fire, Lightning, nonmagical weapon damage. Immune - Poison
Yochlol - Resistant - Cold, Fire, Lightning, nonmagical weapon damage. Immune - Poison
What I notice is that Balors are not the same as Barlguras, which are not the same as Glabrezu, which are not the same as Chasme, and so on.
Because there are differences, your PC would be using that power on every single type of demon to see if maybe this one was also immune to fire or resistant to nonmagic weapons.
Now, I'm sure you've noticed how these are... basically identical? The only difference is whether or not they are strong enough to be resistant to mundane weapons. And, I know, you are about to pee yourself with excitement, because fool that I am, how could I not notice the Shadow Demon? Doesn't that disprove my entire point, this single monster?
Basically = not. I don't even care about the shadow demon, because the others have differences which would be found out by the ability.
So, once you have used your Hunter's Lore, or Lore Bard's Lore on the dretch, what do you gain by using it on the Glabrezu? Literally only that the more powerful demon is resistant to nonmagical weapons, which is only useful if you HAVE magical weapons that are worse than your non-magical weapons. Otherwise, it is useless information.
Yes, other than learning that you need magic weapons to do full damage, it's useless information. Except that's not at all useless information.
Every spell uses at least one components. Verbal is the most common, and I can't think of a single evocation spell that doesn't use it. And you are sure welcome to have your wizard do that, but since your wizard isn't a giant with an elemental theme, it probably won't lead to the same conclusion. You can't just scream "but he might be a wizard!" and expect me to ignore what giant's are, and how they work, ESPECIALLY when you brought up frost giants in comparison. So, I've encountered elementally themed giants once before. Why would I suddenly act like I have no idea what I'm seeing here? Why do you insist my character must be too stupid to use basic logic?
Any creature with psionic magic, which can include giants, dragons or whatever, don't use components for their spells. Then there's subtle spell for giant sorcerers. Good luck seeing a tiny bit of fur and a glass rod that's the size of a giant's pinky enclosed in its fist.
However, in the world where DMs aren't purposefully making gotcha monsters to punish players who use logic, that is never going to happen.
So now DMs can't make unique monsters without it being a gotcha? We have to use book monsters so that you can have read about them in advance?
Because it isn't a vulnerability. Vulnerabilities are called "Vulnerabilities". The troll ability is under "special abilities" and called "regeneration"
It absolutely is a vulnerability, but it's not a Vulnerability. It's like the fact that the DM is a player, but he's not a Player(he's the DM).
Why in the world would I ask? If he is wearing full plate is armor is 18.
PCs don't know that.
That information is right there in the PHB. It isn't metagaming to know what AC's armors give.
I never said it was. It's not something that a PC can find out, so PC abilities should not give that information. PCs can only find out in-fiction things, which AC and hit point numbers are not.
Because AC is not a metagame construct. It is something the player is fully allowed to know, in world.
The player is not in world. The PLAYER knows that plat mail is AC 18 and chain mail is 16, the PC doesn't know those numbers at all. Because in the world all the PC knows is that plate protects better than chain.

AC is entirely metagame. Armor is not.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Sure, you could make it work.

You could make Barbarians, Fighters, Paladins, Rangers, and all sorts of other frontliners "resistant" to the new penalities you are dishing out, but I just don't see the point of designing a system that will either be dreaded by the players or come up so rarely that you don't even notice it.

If I want particularly nasty injuries for a fight, I'll make the monster special, but I don't see anything I want to deal with in making a general system. I've been on the other side of it, and it sucks.
The vast majority of houserules act on PCs negatively. I don't see that as a reason in and of itself to not use them.

I've been on the other side of it too, and didn't mind it, so that cancels out.

And barbarians, by virtue of their class's story, might warrant an except to these hypothetical injury rules, but I don't think any other PH class does.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
People don't have to assume any resistances or vulnerabilities. If you want to assume they have none, go for it.

Really, because for the last three posts you have fought tooth and nail about how I must be metagaming, if I was in a game where orcs were rare. Now it is "assume what you want".

They are wolves. Wolves come in varieties.

No. Wolves come in one form. Wolves.

If you want different monsters, you use different statblocks, like Dire Wolves (which aren't just called wolves) or Winter Wolves, or Flame Wolves, or whatever else. When I said wolf, I meant wolf. Not anything else. Remember, we are talking about a game here, terms are defined.

I do!

What I notice is that Balors are not the same as Barlguras, which are not the same as Glabrezu, which are not the same as Chasme, and so on.
Because there are differences, your PC would be using that power on every single type of demon to see if maybe this one was also immune to fire or resistant to nonmagic weapons.

Balgura are the same as Chasme. Glabrezu are the same as Balors, except that the one is immune to fire. The one immune to fire by the way, is the one holding a flaming whip and with an aura of fire around it. I wonder how I could possibly tell that it might be more than resistant to flame, with it being constantly on fire. I must be forced to use magic!

Also, you are ignoring CR. You wouldn't typically fight a Balor before you fight a Chasme.

Basically = not. I don't even care about the shadow demon, because the others have differences which would be found out by the ability.

Yes, other than learning that you need magic weapons to do full damage, it's useless information. Except that's not at all useless information.

And how is the magic weapon information useful if you don't have magical weapons?

This is one of the things that makes this worse than the theorycraft. Because finding out the enemy is resistant to non-magical weapons, like I said and you ignored, is useless information unless you specifically have magical weapons that are worse than your non-magical weapons. Otherwise, you will be using the same weapons regardless of the information.

If information cannot lead to a tactical change in the current fight, it is useless information in the current fight.

Any creature with psionic magic, which can include giants, dragons or whatever, don't use components for their spells. Then there's subtle spell for giant sorcerers. Good luck seeing a tiny bit of fur and a glass rod that's the size of a giant's pinky enclosed in its fist.

"can include"

So, now, to avoid metagaming, I have to consider that this STORM giant, isn't actually intrinsically tied to storms, but might instead be a psionic sorcerer using subtle spell to just APPEAR like he is intrinsically tied to storms... So, how does my character know about psionics or subtle spell? Those aren't metagaming according to you, but thinking that a STORM giant might be elementally tied to STORMS is. So, do all characters just come pre-loaded with all knowledge of all casting styles, that they must consider as viable alternatives to any possible elemental resistance?

So now DMs can't make unique monsters without it being a gotcha? We have to use book monsters so that you can have read about them in advance?

Make unique monsters? Sure, that's fine.

Make unique monsters explicitly to evoke an elemental immunity, but actually have the creature immune to a completely different element, with the sole purpose of trying to catch players who assume that the monster's appearance is giving valid clues? Yeah, that's like, definitionally a gotcha. There is no other reason for that.

It absolutely is a vulnerability, but it's not a Vulnerability. It's like the fact that the DM is a player, but he's not a Player(he's the DM).

Uh huh, so an ability that allows you to know Vulnerabilities would not tell it to you, because it is not a Vulnerability. Remember, this was copying the Hunter's Lore ability, which has the capitalization. They are not the same thing, which you literally just admitted.

PCs don't know that.

Yes they do.

I never said it was. It's not something that a PC can find out, so PC abilities should not give that information. PCs can only find out in-fiction things, which AC and hit point numbers are not.

The player is not in world. The PLAYER knows that plat mail is AC 18 and chain mail is 16, the PC doesn't know those numbers at all. Because in the world all the PC knows is that plate protects better than chain.

AC is entirely metagame. Armor is not.

Right, it protects better, and they probably have a rough idea of how hard it would be to hit the individual wearing it.

It is absolutely something the character's can figure out. Just because we can put it to hard numbers instead of vague feelings doesn't change that and suddenly make it impossible for the PCs to understand how armor works. And if we can have abilities that tell us ability scores of enemies, we can have abilities that tell us AC. It isn't even a stretch,

Plus, you know, MAGIC. It doesn't have to strictly follow even psuedo-realism.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
The vast majority of houserules act on PCs negatively. I don't see that as a reason in and of itself to not use them.

I do. Why would I want to use rules that hurt my characters and give me nothing in return? That's like deciding to wear pants that are too tight just because they are too tight and it will hurt. Why would I ever do that?

I've been on the other side of it too, and didn't mind it, so that cancels out.

And barbarians, by virtue of their class's story, might warrant an except to these hypothetical injury rules, but I don't think any other PH class does.

So, we just leave other melee classes hanging out to dry.

Bet you see an uptick in ranged fighters and a down-tick in paladins with rules like that, because no one is going to want to be a frontliner if it just means losing their PC to injury rules.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
I do. Why would I want to use rules that hurt my characters and give me nothing in return? That's like deciding to wear pants that are too tight just because they are too tight and it will hurt. Why would I ever do that?



So, we just leave other melee classes hanging out to dry.

Bet you see an uptick in ranged fighters and a down-tick in paladins with rules like that, because no one is going to want to be a frontliner if it just means losing their PC to injury rules.
Have you considered that not everything has to be taken to the extreme? We don't live in a bi-polar universe. I see value in rules that more accurately depict real combat to my mind. My players may as well. That's the upside to me. Your arguments make zero sense to me.
 

TerraDave

5ever, or until 2024
As an aside and not having read every last post in the thread.

Morale--motivation, mental stamina, plain stubbornness, being really drunk--can totally allow someone to push themselves forward in the face of otherwise massive physical damage or debilitation.

But what won't happen is waking up the next morning and being all better. That's the unrealistic part.
 

I have to say that I really dislike bards being able to just prepare any arcane spell they want on a daily basis. That sort of preparation has been the province of clercs and druids, essentially the divine classes(though now druid is primal). No god gives bards that ability and it doesn't make sense that they would have every spell in existence handy just because they are the jack of all trades class.
Yeah, totally agreed. I liked that Bard was similar to sorcerer with their spells more a cumulative learning. As a player it avoided much of the spell selection paralysis because you only had to choose spells at level-up and even then you got either 1 new one + 1 replaced or 2 new magic secret spells +1 replaced. Pick your spells and move on. If you chose badly, swap it out next level.

I also found innate casters to have a dwindling number of 1st & 2nd level spells as they load up on 3rd & 4th Level spells that upcast well and their 5th+ spells are very limited given how few slots they get to cast. Its a different kind of flexibility.

I also take some umbrage at the name "Peerless skill". It might be "unflagging" skill or "doggedly competent" skill. But it is not "peerless". A peerless skill is one that is without peer. It can achieve things others can not. How do you make a "peerless" artwork with this skill? Can I declare the goal is to make a masterwork and anything less gets the boost?

And in a social circumstance, what does the rule even mean? What kind of outcome qualifies as "failure"? Can we dictate that success is getting the guard to look the other way while we sneak in as "succes" and then if they simply decide not to sound the alarm over our attempted bribe that is a failure?
 

Yaarel

He Mage
I made a bard yesterday using the new rules. Looking at the abilities, I realized I could make a witch. I took human and gave my character the magic initiative feat (primal). I took the spells, Shillelagh, guidance and Hunter's Mark. (this gives me a magic witch's staff, and the ability to know best place to hit hard via Hunter's Mark).

I created midwife background and took Healer feat and herbalism tool kit. From bard, Dancing Lights, Vicious mockery, Sleep and Hex as default prepped spells. The inspiration dice work, as my witch shouts advice and quickie cures. At 2nd level, Healing Word works well. The abilities from Lore bard don't require much refluffing to make them witchy.

The instruments are bit odd but I took really basic ones. I'll probably mostly ignore them, other than my witch has musical talent. I did not take perform. The saving throws aren't quite right but not a huge deal. If a player came to me with this character, I'd allow them to change the Dex save.

Yes, I did take racial and background features to push the witch motif, but this shouldn't have worked so well. It is really easy to drown out the bard flavour.
Yeah.

I similarly use Bard as my go to class for mythologically accurate shamans.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Really, because for the last three posts you have fought tooth and nail about how I must be metagaming, if I was in a game where orcs were rare. Now it is "assume what you want".

No. Wolves come in one form. Wolves.
And dragons come in one form. Dragons!
Balgura are the same as Chasme. Glabrezu are the same as Balors, except that the one is immune to fire. The one immune to fire by the way, is the one holding a flaming whip and with an aura of fire around it. I wonder how I could possibly tell that it might be more than resistant to flame, with it being constantly on fire. I must be forced to use magic!

Also, you are ignoring CR. You wouldn't typically fight a Balor before you fight a Chasme.
CR doesn't matter. You would be using the ability as you encounter them. It's not as if you learn what a balor's resistances and immunities are until you encounter it. Chasme isn't going to clue you in.
And how is the magic weapon information useful if you don't have magical weapons?

This is one of the things that makes this worse than the theorycraft. Because finding out the enemy is resistant to non-magical weapons, like I said and you ignored, is useless information unless you specifically have magical weapons that are worse than your non-magical weapons. Otherwise, you will be using the same weapons regardless of the information.

If information cannot lead to a tactical change in the current fight, it is useless information in the current fight.
It can lead to a tactical change. Will it every time? Probably not every time, but at least you will be able to make an informed decision rather than shooting blindly in the dark.
Yes they do.
No they don't. Armor doesn't come with numbers attached in the world.
Right, it protects better, and they probably have a rough idea of how hard it would be to hit the individual wearing it.

It is absolutely something the character's can figure out. Just because we can put it to hard numbers instead of vague feelings doesn't change that and suddenly make it impossible for the PCs to understand how armor works. And if we can have abilities that tell us ability scores of enemies, we can have abilities that tell us AC. It isn't even a stretch,
It's impossible for them to figure out exactly how much it protects, because hit points are abstract. Hit points don't even represent being actually hit until you are at 50%, and then it's only scratches until you hit 0. So that near miss? It was really a hit for 20 points of damage taking you from 100 to 80.

How's a guy in plate mail supposed to figure out how much his armor protected him against a miss that hit?

AC for armor is not representative of physical protection. It would need to be DR for that to be true.
 

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