Bard vs Bard

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

So, what are the prevailing opinions of Monte's Bard (other than it needs its own name)

Is it what you expected? Better? Worse? More Cool? Dumb?

I translated a L5 bard from the old style to the new, and honestly, it got weaker. The concept is cool and I really think it helps the bard to be something other than just another spellcaster as far as the mechanics for magic goes. But I was among the crowd who felt that the PH bard could have used a little more power. I was really expecting to see that.

 

[Crothian]

Man, I was expecting a Spy vs Spy parody or something...

I like the new Bard. It really have a musicla flavor to it, and as a muscian I really like that. I haven't made one or anything, so I'm not sure if how it actually plays out at the gaming table. But it lloks good.

 

[Victim]

Repost from myself

I'm not sure I like the new Bard. While the actual class features seem fine, I don't really like the spellsongs.

The bard will be stuck with notes until level 6. However, the notes are much weaker than existing spells. I'd say that they are about 1/2 way in between cantrips and 1st level spells in effect. Having a bunch of super cantips is nice at level 1, but not at level 5. For example, Charm Person was a 1st level spell on the bard list, availibile at 2nd level. Monte's Bard has a Momentary Charm spell note that can be learned from level 1. However, it lasts a mere 1 round per level, which pretty much defies the point of charming someone. Even boosted via the song feats, it'd still have too short a duration. A charm spell slightly superior to the existing one (it's more like the druid one) is a spell chord that bards can learn from level 6. There's a similar problem with higher level spells. Charm Monster on old bards versus new: 7th level minimum versus 13th!

Bards seem to lose alot in higher level effects as well. While there is a version of Disintegrate, there's no mass suggestion or very many Melodies at all. There are only 9 melodies (requires level 13) as opposed to the 20+ 5th and 6th level bard spells just in the PHB. Also, many of these Melodies are versions of lower level Bard spells, like break enchantment, charm monster, and hold monster.

Finally, bard spellsongs don't seem to be very versatile. I think there are too many damaging effects and flashy magics such as Bardic disintegrates and walls of force, and too little utility, information gathering, or charm effects; at which bards previously excelled. There's not even an equivalent of Prestigiditation to make sure bards have clean clothes while traveling.

While the actual class abilities and spellsong idea are nice, the crippled spell list, along with no guidelines for converting other spells to spellsongs, weaken this class greatly.

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The new bard isn't as great a team player as well. While Physical Enhancement is nice as opposed to learning 3 spells, some of the buffs have been changed to self only. Haste on someone else is much more effective than haste on the bard, with most characters.

Especially since bards have already been house ruled to 6 skill points per level in the campaign in which I play a bard character, I'll stick with the old version. At level 3, I'm really looking foward to getting Suggestion and one other spell next level. With the variant, I'd be stuck with super cantrips for 3 more levels. However, I was thinking of trying use the new bardic feats, and maybe a prestige class.

 

[Chroma]

My biggest problem with the new Bard...

...is that they can't teach each other new songs!

Once they've picked their notes (etc) that's all they know. Sure they can combine notes to form more powerful spellsongs, but only if they all know the words! *laugh* Which is highly unlikely since there are so many to choose from. I was hoping bards would know "spells" more like wizards, though based on Charisma, instead of fixed known "spells" as sorcerers, and be able to spread their magical musical knowledge with each other. Something between sorcerers and wizards, with a little less magic. Now, with their Bardic Music changed to spellsong, they seem to have less magic per level than before, with a lot more emphasis on combat.

Anyone know of any other variant bards?

 

[Skywalker]

I like the new Bard better. I am sure of power level but from a conceptual perspective the new class is far better by focussing on the song aspect of a Bard.

I never liked Bards being Arcane spellcasters. The new Bard is no longer a mish mash of ideas but something more unique and conceptual different.

I may still need to tinker with the rules aspect to balance the power (as with monte's Ranger) but I recognise its conceptual integrity

 

[drowdude]

I prefer Monte's Bard overall.

Although I will be making one minor change >>Int modifier (min 1) worth of martial/exotic weapon profs from a specific list <<.

As far as the spell-notes being somewhat limited compared to the spells the PHB Bard goes, I really dont agree. IMO the ability to cast them as ME actions balances them out .

The Chords and Melodys seem powerful enough in their own right generally.

In addition, bard spells seem relatively easy to translate into spell-songs. I started to use min bard level X to qualify to learn certain converted spells though... like Great Shout requiring min bard level 16 for instance.

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

I prefer Monte's Bard overall.

Although I will be making one minor change >>Int modifier (min 1) worth of martial/exotic weapon profs from a specific list <<.

As far as the spell-notes being somewhat limited compared to the spells the PHB Bard goes, I really dont agree. IMO the ability to cast them as ME actions balances them out .

The Chords and Melodys seem powerful enough in their own right generally.

In addition, bard spells seem relatively easy to translate into spell-songs. I started to use min bard level X to qualify to learn certain converted spells though... like Great Shout requiring min bard level 16 for instance.

The MEA aspect helps. And the ability to turn chords and melodies into LOTS of notes is also good. But AT BEST the spell songs are balanced against the old bard spells. But the 1/day/level bardic music is also lost, rolled into the spellsong concept. And there is no way the spellsongs are as good as the old spells PLUs bardic music combined.

I was very interested in both the class variants, but the more I study them, the more discontent I become.

(As a side note, an under-powered class is just an "Oh-well, no harm no foul." If Monte had throw two new uber classes at us, it would have been disruptive. So for that I am happy. err on the side of caution.)

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

I like the new Bard better. I am sure of power level but from a conceptual perspective the new class is far better by focussing on the song aspect of a Bard.

I never liked Bards being Arcane spellcasters. The new Bard is no longer a mish mash of ideas but something more unique and conceptual different.

I may still need to tinker with the rules aspect to balance the power (as with monte's Ranger) but I recognise its conceptual integrity

I agree that the concept is greatly improved.

 

[drowdude]

The MEA aspect helps. And the ability to turn chords and melodies into LOTS of notes is also good. But AT BEST the spell songs are balanced against the old bard spells. But the 1/day/level bardic music is also lost, rolled into the spellsong concept. And there is no way the spellsongs are as good as the old spells PLUs bardic music combined.

I was very interested in both the class variants, but the more I study them, the more discontent I become.

(As a side note, an under-powered class is just an "Oh-well, no harm no foul." If Monte had throw two new uber classes at us, it would have been disruptive. So for that I am happy. err on the side of caution.)

I never really liked the Bardic music 1/day per level powers anyways. They were too easy too abuse (via taking one level of Bard), and I never liked that all bards were assumed to develop identical abilities. Not to mention they capped out at like 9th level or so.

Monte's version fixes those problems as I preceived them.

Also, when comparing the power of the 2 classes dont forget the bump in skill points... that is *really* nice.
Although that puts me in the mind of the other change I made to PHB bards that I will prolly transfer over to Monte's...

Bards getting 4 free ranks in Perform at level 1, and then 1 free rank per bard level attained.
(I word it that way so that if someone multiclasses into Bard later on in the career they dont get maxed out ranks for their character level.)

 

[Victim]

I prefer Monte's Bard overall.

Although I will be making one minor change >>Int modifier (min 1) worth of martial/exotic weapon profs from a specific list <<.

As far as the spell-notes being somewhat limited compared to the spells the PHB Bard goes, I really dont agree. IMO the ability to cast them as ME actions balances them out .

The Chords and Melodys seem powerful enough in their own right generally.

In addition, bard spells seem relatively easy to translate into spell-songs. I started to use min bard level X to qualify to learn certain converted spells though... like Great Shout requiring min bard level 16 for instance.

I'd much rather cast a 3 hour charm person as standard action than cast a 36 second charm person as a move equivalent action. Charm isn't a combat spell, and it needs a significant duration to accomplish anything.

I also disagree about Chords and Melodies. Charm monster is level 4 spell for mages and level 3 for bards. They both get the spell at the same time. The variant bard's charm monster, soothe the savage beast is effectively the same as Charm Monster, except with much shorter range. He can first learn song at level 13. Old bards would be dominating stuff before that. The variant bard's charms, one of their apparent advantages, aren't competitive with mages or their PHB counterparts. Is essentially doubling the level of key bard ability worth 2 extra points? Also, none of the bard songs strike me as very unique. I loved the bard only spell Modify Memory. Now it's unique effect has been replaced with Sound Channel!?

I'd much rather just prentend my arcane bard casts spells through songs than have a weaker, singing, evasive bard that can't do anything.