D&D 5E Bards have an identity problem!

my own take on the Bard class turns it into an at-will dedicated de-buff class, that's only available for multi-classing.

a dedicated de-buff class couldn't actually contribute toward the goal of combat, so making sure they're also a Wizard or Fighter or something means they can still deal damage when the Bard gimmick starts to wear thin.

Can the Intimidate skill be used to debuff during combat? If so, it could be both at-will and nonmagical, and benefit from Cha.

The Intimidate skill has its own difficulties. Recently, I switched the key abilities as follows.

- Str (Intimidate) - strictly physical intimidation.

- Int (Deception) - that can survive scrutiny

- Cha (Persuasion) - psychological charm, frighten, and reconciliation.

I am happy with this skill threesome. In this context, Persuasion can influence morale, thus be used both to buff and to debuff during combat.
 

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What was the game-world identity of Bard's before? If a Magus is a Wizard/Fighter in PF, is a bard a Wizard/Thief with musical flavor and subbing out back-stab for knowledge skills?

What literature are they patterned after? Was it the Finnish section of de Camp and Pratt? What distinguishes them from a Wizard that uses words (like Earthsea or Name of the Wind) except for singing instead of saying?

Should they be more like Warlocks but with songs? Is that too limiting?
The D&D bard, to the best of my knowledge, is based on the following:
The Celtic Bard, as a musician/performer and master of lore, the 2e PHB specifically cited Amergin Glúingel from Irish folklore as an inspiration for the Bard class.
The 2e AD&D PHB also cited Alan-a-Dale and Will Scarlett of the Robin Hood myths as examples of Bards from folklore.
The Scandinavian Skald, as a similar archetype of a loremaster and performer to the Celtic Bard is often cited as an inspiration for the class.

It seems to be the D&D interpretation of the archetype of the minstrel, the jongleur, the bard, the skald. . .the performer and master of lore that may serve in a court or may wander from place to place, but they are adept at the performing arts and often possessed of great learning and knowledge.

30 years of D&D since 1e has made the class a little self-referential, like how the modern D&D Ranger is as influenced by the Drizzt Do'urden novels as by any historic, literary or mythical roots, as the bard now combines the original source of the class being master of lore and performing arts with a general "jack of all trades" class that has at least basic elements of most other classes, such as the basics of swordsmanship from a fighter, the basics of thievery from rogues, rudimentary healing magic from Clerics, and basic use of other magic from Wizards.
 

Warpiglet-7

Cry havoc! And let slip the pigs of war!
I think to @FrogReaver ’s point they are widely divergent from most of these stories if you wish. They are very loose.

if you look at “roles” which I generally do not, they are very malleable too.

example: if you like melee take moderately armored feat and at 4th, take magic initiate. With magical secrets for a lore bard you can muster gfb, armor of Agathys, hex, Eldritch blast and spiritual weapon——at level 6.

that’s a lot of melee/combat ability for a full caster. Very odd. I know feats are optional but nonetheless bizarre.

and your magical secrets scale...
 

CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing
wizards studies magic. Clerics granted magic by the gods. Bards pick up a lite and cast spells?
This isn't just a problem with the bard, though. If you're going to compare the "Core Four" classes side-by-side with the rest of the classes in the PHB, you're gonna have to do a lot of squinting if you want them to make sense. Because in many ways, Paladins are fighters who went to church once. Bards are rogues with violin lessons. Artificers are wizards who took shop class. Et cetera.

It's easier (and probably more fair) to compare the Bard to the Eldritch Knight or the Arcane Trickster.
 

1e bard was a "prestige class" sotospeak with levels in fighter and rogue as prereq.

So a 5e version of a 1e bard is almost exact as a multiclass rogue and-or fighter who dips bard to pickup inspiration.

The 1e bard used the druid spell list, but the 5e bard spell list is more mythologically accurate.
 

SkidAce

Legend
Supporter
In 5e the Bard is as good of a caster as a Wizard or Cleric. But Bards that cast spells like Wizards cast don't feel very Bard-like. They feel more like a Charisma Wizard. That makes for a mechanically strong class but a thematically weak one. Do 5e Bards have the identity they should have?
Bards are like warriors, they can fit any aesthetic...

chanting lore keepers
song mages
herald/skalds
minstrels
riddlemasters of hed (obscure reference ftw)

I feel they are perfect in that regard.
 

Bards are like warriors, they can fit any aesthetic...

chanting lore keepers
song mages
herald/skalds
minstrels
riddlemasters of hed (obscure reference ftw)

I feel they are perfect in that regard.
Dont forget the Shaman. The Bard class is excellent for shaman concepts.

Also note the recent UA for spirit summoners, that feel like making stories come to life.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
This isn't just a problem with the bard, though. If you're going to compare the "Core Four" classes side-by-side with the rest of the classes in the PHB, you're gonna have to do a lot of squinting if you want them to make sense. Because in many ways, Paladins are fighters who went to church once. Bards are rogues with violin lessons. Artificers are wizards who took shop class. Et cetera.

It's easier (and probably more fair) to compare the Bard to the Eldritch Knight or the Arcane Trickster.

no problem with those classes. Just bard.
 


Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
The historical Myrddin is mainly a prescient.

There is no historical Merlin. Just like there's no historical Arthur. Or Lancelot. None of these are historical figures.

There are several folkloric Merlins. Maybe the one you are talking about is mostly a prescient.
 

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