Bards just don't convince me!

[Crothian]

If you are looking for purely mechanically reasons the bard will always look bad as many of its abilities and strengths are more subtle. But with the right spells and a creative player the class is lots of fun.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Now, this is the kind of stuff I mean. I have no idea what any of that is. Ironskin chant, sustaining song, it means nothing to me because nothing about the bard grabbed me strongly enough to read into it fully. What books are they from? We rarely play anything but PHB & Completes.

Both are in Complete Adventurer, I believe.

...but I still find it hard to believe that the difference between a bard and a cleric boils down to hps...

Not quite "just hps," but, oftentimes, it's close.

Note that a bard can continue to sing while they are otherwise fighting normally.

If you really need an extra healer, bards can use any Cure X Wounds wand that's available.

As for Bard feats and variant rules, there're some good ones in the Eberron Campaign Setting. One of them - Song of the Heart - has a fairly low Perform requirement, and increases the numerical bonuses of bardic music by +1: Inspire Courage grants +2 / +2, Inspire Competence grants +3, etc.

There're also feats to affect animals, plants, and constructs (?), as well as rules on taking special bardic music feats in place of new bardic song abilties.

EDIT:

As far as "substandard combatants" ...

DRAGON DISCIPLE
Hit Die: d12.
Requirements
To qualify to become a dragon disciple, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Race: Any nondragon (cannot already be a half-dragon).
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks.
Languages: Draconic.
Spellcasting: Ability to cast arcane spells without preparation.

Bards make great half-dragons.

 

[Ketjak]

If this is really true, and none of you can see their merit at all, then you're fools.

+1 to hit, +1 to damage is great. Being able to shut down a fight before it starts (via fascinate) is great too. And some of those spells are pretty potent, as long as you make good selections. Especially if you pick up bardic metamagic.

And just wait till you pick up some of the bardic music feats. Ironskin chant, sustaining song...

And, of course, a bard isn't that bad in a fight either if you choose to build him that way. There's quite a few of his spells don't require somatics, so you can potentially armour up, and no matter what people think, or the perceptions involved, the difference between a cleric and a bard is only 1hp/level. And take a look at some of those charisma-based combat feats that're coming out.

I DM a group that had a fourth level bard - a kobold, no less! - mixed into a group of 7th to 9th-level characters of more traditional types (the bard player had just lost his character for at least a few sessions and effectively started at the floor of the level mix). He was responsible for more damage during his third session than anyone else in the party except the wizard casting fireballs, due to that +1 damage and bonus to hit (which made a difference several times). That's not to mention bonuses to saves, timely healing, and other assistance he provided.

And he's a linguist. And a sentry. And a fine searcher. And a historian. And the diplomat. And he carries a crossbow when the times get rough.

The only bad thing about him is I can't come up with an obvious reason why most of the bad guys don't try to whack him like they do the wizards or the machine gun- er, the archer. Thus, he stays in the shadow of the glitzy characters until they run into someone smart enough to recognize the threat he poses and who can avoid being killed by the party wizards long enough to do something about the little scaly ba***rd.

- Ket

 

[mhd]

Hmm, my current Greyhawk campaign has a recently converted bard. In one of the few attempts at sitting at the other side of the table recently, I played a gnomish bard...

They're not that bad, especially in 3.5. The music and a good spell selection make up for the sneak attack of the rogue, and you can use quite a lot of nice items. I wouldn't consider him worse than a rogue or monk. But he is more a enabling character, allowing other players to wreak holy havoc either by buffing or keeping annoying foes out of the fight. Hideous Laughter is a first level spell for a bard...

But if combat ability is everything that counts and the thought of someone immortalizing the exploits of the party is at best "laughable", maybe the bard doesn't fulfill the neccesary testosterone prerequisites...

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

bards

I want to love bards, but I hate them.

I want to love them because they're generalists with great social skills and interesting spells.

I hate them because it just seems absurd to sing in combat. I wish there was a variant bard who traded off inspire courage, etc. for bonus feats or a slightly better spell progression.

Ken

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Multi-Classed Bards..

Ya, I konw this is a thread about staight Bards, and there can be much debates on the benefits of going one-class vice multi.. however,

My first 3E character started as Ranger/Bard with a goal of being the first illiterate Arcane Archer in the forest. What the others upthread have been saying is true in spades. Subtle advantages here and there, and the ability to do pretty much anything any other class can do can cover alot of ground.
Of course, any time we had a new player notice that my chain-mail wearing, Greatsword weilding archer was chanting encouraging songs in combat... well, it can take some time explaining

Cutter held his own in a party that ended up at 9th level, despite being multi-classed and not a power-build character. I wish the game had been able to continue, as he was finally ready to seek out the way of the Arcane Archer... and still quite illiterate!

 

[MoonZar]

Hello,

Anyway the bard is cool if your DM give room to roleplay and story for the character, if you play pure optimization for character and powergamin, i dont think someone will have much fun as a bard.

But if you roleplay a lot in your game the bard could be very handy in city and to interact as the group leader also.

 

[James Heard]

Don't forget that bards, when multiclassed, can be even larger holy terrors than the "more core" classes alone. Plus Bardic knowledge is pretty much teh shizzle when it comes to mystery solving. If you're just playing a hack n' slay game though? Probably not worth it, along with Rangers & Wizards. If all you're interacting with is 10x10 rooms then a Bard is probably not an optimal choice.

 

[Gruns]

Underrated.

I personally feel that bards are pretty underrated. Even in an average size group, that +1/+1 adds up. As for the "Jack-of-all-trades, master of none" label, well, it isn't quite accurate. Bards are clearly the masters of winning friends and influencing others. And finding out stuff. And all that other role-playing crap that apparantly no one does.
They can use wands of Cure XXXX, make decent archers, as good as it gets for stealth, and oh so much more.
And they're usually a bit off-the-wall, which keeps things interesting.
Later!
Gruns

 

[Saeviomagy]

Not quite "just hps," but, oftentimes, it's close.

I misspoke - I meant that the difference in combat stats (pre-armour or spells) is only 1hp/level.

Bards make great half-dragons.

I'd have to disagree. You're most likely a lot better off with sorceror and a fighter class before going into DD.

I hate them because it just seems absurd to sing in combat. I wish there was a variant bard who traded off inspire courage, etc. for bonus feats or a slightly better spell progression.

If your DM allows flaws, you can potentially trade the singing in for two feats.

Alternately you can just forget about "singing" and change it to "giving orders" or "menacing your foes". Perform is a very broad skill.