Bards just don't convince me!

[Storyteller01]

If you want to go with Asian themes, the singing could just as easlily be chanting and Kotodama. Same mechanincal effect with a somewhat sinister twist. Watch any anime dealing with ninjas!

If built right, bards could take the place of a mysric ninja or warrior. PLenty of disguise and hide skills, the charisma to pull off the disguise, and spells to help. You don't get sneak attack, but there are ways around that (garrottes do CON damage, and poison is just too much fun...)

 

[Greylock]

I DM a group that had a fourth level bard - a kobold, no less!

Deekin LIVES!


Re: Bards... I can't get past the fact that some folks actually try to RP bardsong.

 

[John Q. Mayhem]

A character I like, is a unfettered (or swashbuckler, if you gotta use WotC) 2/bard 3 (gets you the prereqs for Song of the Heart from the ECS)/warchanter X. Strong in combat, good healing with wands and such, good buffing with Song of the Heart...MY DMPC in the campaign I'm starting is a Dwarven character built like this who wields a greathammer. He's a DMPC, so I'm struggling to keep him in the background, but it ain't easy

 

[Storyteller01]

Don't forget that bards, when multiclassed, can be even larger holy terrors than the "more core" classes alone. Plus Bardic knowledge is pretty much teh shizzle when it comes to mystery solving. If you're just playing a hack n' slay game though? Probably not worth it, along with Rangers & Wizards. If all you're interacting with is 10x10 rooms then a Bard is probably not an optimal choice.

A bard/cleric of the trickster is much fun.

 

[youspoonybard]

I think Bards are great - and I have two players who play Bards almost exclusively - because they are what they need to be, when you need them to.

For example - at the beginning of most battles, a bard would usually slap a Haste spell on the party - freeing up the Arcane casters at the beginning, where a well placed spell could do a lot of damage. During the middle stages, they would support the party with physical attacks and bard song. If several party members were injured, they would step in and heal the one with lesser wounds, freeing up the cleric. If there was a less-important enemy to check, the bard would fill in for the fighter.

Perhaps it's just because of my DMing style, but I find that Mages make their biggest contributions earlier in combat, when they unleash their powerful spells, and tend to fade towards the end of the encounter (or the day), when their higher level slots are exhausted, or they wish to save them for the next encounter. Fighters, on the other hand, do better later on as they are mopping up weaken foes, all day long. Clerics can contribute offensively earlier in combats, but in later rounds are more restricted to healing wounds. Rogues, monks, and other specialized combat classes have situational contributions.

But even excluding the +1 bonuses on the Bard Song, bards make the party a lot more efficient by freeing up other party members - in combat, on the fly. Buffing the party helps the Wizard throw that first Fireball. Tripping the beasts helps keep the meleer's safe and deal their damage, when combat is tight and heavy. Healing the slightly singed but less threatened Wizard leaves the cleric to Heal the fighter's lost 98 hit points, while keeping both characters safe.

And that bard song does really add up : )

 

[The Souljourner]

At 8th level, the song of courage becomes +2. That's +2 to hit *and* damage for the whole party that the bard can do 8 times per day. That's insane.

Think of the bard as a rogue who gets Dominate Person and Haste and

Here's some awesome spells bards get:
Tasha's Hideous Laughter - 1st level spell that is pretty much Otto's Irresistible Dance, except you get a will save (and it lasts longer at higher levels)
Alter Self - 2nd level spell that gives you +6 natural armor for 10min per level? Yes, thank you.
Blindness - fort save or the guy is effectively out of the fight. I'll take it.
Detect Thoughts - find people behind walls, find out what their plans are
Hold Person - oldy, but a goody
Invisibility - as above
Blink - 50% miss chance and you can walk through walls. Handy.
Glibness - +30 to bluff?! Holee crapola! "Umm.. yeah, this rock is actually an incredibly valuable moonstone... What? Sure, I'll trade it for that magic sword"
Haste.. mmm.. haste...
Fear - if you've ever been hit by this as a PC, you know how crazy good it is
Dominate Person - *drool*
Modify Memory - "Don't you remember, I paid you for the armor when I requested it"
And oh yeah, bards get the real Otto's Irresistible Dance, too.

Plus, 6 skillpoints per level, plus bardic knowledge, plus the best charisma in the party... you DO go to town *sometime* right?

I played a bard and he kicked ass. You can buff the party while the wizard starts blasting things... when that's done, you can wade in and get your melee on, all the while giving everyone +2 to hit and damage.

Bards can be a huge help to a party when played correctly. They're not brainless fighters or blaster mages.. you have to actually work a bit to get the most out of them, but if you do, they can be a significant help in almost any situation.

-The Souljourner

 

[Legildur]

.... plus bardic knowledge, ....

Why has it taken this many posts for anyone to mention Bardic Knowledge?

This class ability is perhaps one of the best sources of information that you will ever have access to. Of course that depends on the DM, but sometimes even the most obscure and seemingly useless bit of info can be a life-saver.

And most people have already mentioned the extra attack bonus and damage from bardic music.... It is simply fantastic in the long run.

 

[Saeviomagy]

This class ability is perhaps one of the best sources of information that you will ever have access to. Of course that depends on the DM, but sometimes even the most obscure and seemingly useless bit of info can be a life-saver.

This is probably the primary reason noone mentioned it - if you're in a group who all think that bards suck, what do you think the chances of the DM giving them anything useful via bardic knowledge is?

 

[HeavyG]

This is probably the primary reason noone mentioned it - if you're in a group who all think that bards suck, what do you think the chances of the DM giving them anything useful via bardic knowledge is?

True.

Hey, if the DM thinks bards suck too, it may be possible to sneak the feat Words of Creation, from the Book of Exalted Deeds, past him.

It doubles the effect of a bard song for a few hp dmg. This would mean that at level 8, your exalted bard could inspire courage and grant everyone a +4 bonus to hit and dmg rolls !

At 9th level, he could follow that next round with an Inspire Greatness on the party fighter. Enhancing that with Words of Creation is hard, it does much damage, but even the ordinary version would grant 2 virtual levels to the fighter, including temporary hit points and a +2 bonus to hit that stacks with the +4 from Inspire Courage.

He can also cast Haste, which in most parties means that the arcane caster will be free to cast a fireball instead.

 

[Mouseferatu]

I think what many people get stuck on is "bard in combat," when the truth is, bards are incredibly useful outside of combat.

Negotiation, diplomacy, infiltration, scouting, information gathering, assassination, research...

Bards are useful in combat, as others have pointed out. But the truth is, I think they're more useful in campaigns that don't focus exclusively on combat than in those that do. Since many people do play the traditional hack-n-slash dungeon crawls, they may be right that--for their campaign--bards are less useful than they are in others. (Not useless; just less useful.)