Bards just don't convince me!

[mikebr99]

As an aside, buh? I see lizardfolk get a +5 NA, what gets a +6? I had never thought about using this spell as a combat-enhancer, though it's fun for disguises and such.

Hi Dan.

Troglodytes get +6 natural armour.


Mike

 

[TheAuldGrump]

In my experience the Bard is the best 'fifth character' in the game. And in larger parties his usefulness increases. He may not be the best choice for the first four slots, but as backup he really helps out the group.

The Auld Grump, who would likely choose either Bard or Wizard if he ever got a chance to play...

 

[Diirk]

I'd have to disagree. You're most likely a lot better off with sorceror and a fighter class before going into DD.

How so? A bard 4/barbarian 1 will have the same BAB as a sorceror 1/fighter 4, will have rage vs weapon spec (less uses per day, but slightly better when you do use it), can cast spells in light armour, has better saves (3/4/4 vs 4/1/3), ALOT more skills (tumble, anyone ?) and better spellcasting.

The downsides: you get 6 less hp (assuming bard vs fighter first levels and average hp for after first), no familiar, and no truestrike. Unless of course you drop 750gp on a wand of it and max out your UMD... Plus things like cure light wounds, featherfall, heroism, alter self, glitterdust etc are always handy.

Honestly I'm not seeing why everyone is so fussed on using a sorceror/tank type for DD ? Altho admittedly I do think the barbarian level in there is better than just straight bard.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

In my experience the Bard is the best 'fifth character' in the game. And in larger parties his usefulness increases. He may not be the best choice for the first four slots, but as backup he really helps out the group.

My first choice for a 5th PC in the party would be something along the lines of a Ranger/Archer, but I do agree with your general point. A Bard is competitive with any Cleric or Wizard when it comes to buffing in a larger party. And offensive spell power into the medium levels barely lags a Wizard when fighting targets vulnerable to enchantments -- Confusion, Fear, and Hold Monster are very effective spells.

 

[Pielorinho]

Confusion, Fear, and Hold Monster are very effective spells.

True--but so are Suggestion, Charm Monster, and Dominate Person. If you've already got a tank to absorb damage and whittle the enemy down, I think it's a great idea to have someone who can recruit the dummies to your side mid-battle.

A single well-placed suggestion ("Your master is doomed! Join our forces to defeat him, and you'll share in the treasure!") can eliminate two combatants at once (the one that's suggested, and the one that the spell target starts to attack).

I've not yet gotten to use Charm Monster to good effect, but I'm looking forward to it.

Daniel

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

IMO, the bard is one of those classes that requires a good DM in order for it to be effective (same with an illusionist). If your DM is dismissive of bards, it's probably a bad idea to play one. But if your DM is willing to cater to a bard's strengths (role-playing and interaction in social settings), then it has the potential to be a superb class. For a dungeon crawl, it sucks. For a city adventure, it's awesome. The bard has the potential to be the Rock Star of any city setting.

So it all depends on what type of campaign you're playing in and what type of DM is running it.

 

[two]

IMO, the bard is one of those classes that requires a good DM in order for it to be effective (same with an illusionist). If your DM is dismissive of bards, it's probably a bad idea to play one. But if your DM is willing to cater to a bard's strengths (role-playing and interaction in social settings), then it has the potential to be a superb class. For a dungeon crawl, it sucks. For a city adventure, it's awesome. The bard has the potential to be the Rock Star of any city setting.

So it all depends on what type of campaign you're playing in and what type of DM is running it.

There are plenty of bard builds that do wonderfully in a dungeon crawl.

The whole idea that "bards are only good if the GM panders to them/has social-only encounters tailored for the bard" is really a bunch of hoo-hoo.

If you have a GM dismissive of bard's, that is a perfect chanct to show them what bards can really do. I'd truly relish a challenge of that sort, myself.

Refer to previous posts for ideas about strong bard builds/why bards are effective characters IN combat as well out OUT of combat.

 

[Henry]

Music and song in battle was not unusual in the pre-Industrial world. In point of fact, there is some commentary concerning the Roman legions noting that they were virtually unique in that they did not sing in battle or go to war with music in the air.

Another suggestion: If you don't think of music on the battlefield, take the Spider-man example: INSULTS! Nothing raises your allies' spirits like calling your enemy a host of amusing and ineffectual names! Can you see the orcish raiders getting reduced to "Porky", "Snortblossom," etc. I can imagine a bard dodging an orcish sword as he talks about recognizing the orc's mother in his breakfast-plate yesterday...

 

[Nail]

Wet-blanket time.

Clerics cast 1st level spell bless......very similar to the bard "inspire" schitck. And in fact the morale bonuses from cleric spells and bard spells don't stack, so someone's gonna be unhappy.

Clerics have lots and lots and lots of buff spells.....and they're usually better than bard's spells. Haste is the notable exception.

Bard as the "best 5th member"? Are you _nuts_? Another frontline fighter, a 2nd line archer, a magic slinging Wiz (or Psi!), or *any* cleric build are all much better options. Heck, have 2 clerics in your party -- twice the divine buff goodness.

I'd love to see a bard build that can't be beaten soundly by another class' build, point-for-point. (Ain't gonna happen.)

 

[two]

Wet-blanket time.

Clerics cast 1st level spell bless......very similar to the bard "inspire" schitck. And in fact the morale bonuses from cleric spells and bard spells don't stack, so someone's gonna be unhappy.

Clerics have lots and lots and lots of buff spells.....and they're usually better than bard's spells. Haste is the notable exception.

Bard as the "best 5th member"? Are you _nuts_? Another frontline fighter, a 2nd line archer, a magic slinging Wiz (or Psi!), or *any* cleric build are all much better options. Heck, have 2 clerics in your party -- twice the divine buff goodness.

I'd love to see a bard build that can't be beaten soundly by another class' build, point-for-point. (Ain't gonna happen.)

Well, I can also build a 5 PC party, all clerics, that will rock any other 5 PC build (with only, say, 1-2 clerics).

The melee cleric. The high DC cleric. The Undead-destroying cleric. The Healing cleric. The magic domain cleric.

Those guys would rock.

Yeah, clerics are more powerful than bards, or fighters, or wizards, etc. Arguably, more powerful than any other class, barring (perhaps) Druids. Still, 5 Clerics will beat 5 druids, simply because they can have more variation.

Perhaps restate the obvious:

In a 4 person party, which is a typical party (with a cleric already), a bard as a 5th PC can be very effective.

Granted. Not as good as another cleric in the party.

Which isn't as good as, well, a party of 5 clerics.

But it's a whole heck of a lot more fun, and the power drop off isn't THAT steep. Until you get to levels 15+, perhaps.