Bards just don't convince me!

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Wet-blanket time.

Clerics cast 1st level spell bless......very similar to the bard "inspire" schitck. And in fact the morale bonuses from cleric spells and bard spells don't stack, so someone's gonna be unhappy.

Yeah, the cleric, because Bless:

1. Doesn't last as long (1 minute per level vs. Bard song is "How long can you keep singing?" with a minimum of 5 rounds?")
2. Provides inferior benefits (+1 morale to Hit, +1 morale to saves vs. Fear vs. +1 morale to Hit and Damage, +1 moral to saves vs. Charm and Fear increasing to +4 / +4 / +4)
3. Can be dropped in a party with a bard to memorize something else - Protection from Evil, maybe?

 

[Nail]

1. Doesn't last as long

Lasts the length of every battle I've ever DMed or played in.

2. Provides inferior benefits

Barely. The +1 to damage is what we're talkin' about, really. And after 1st level, the cleric spells (like Prayer, Recitation, Wrath of the Faithful, etc) are better than the bard equivalent.

Moreover, while the bard is singing he ain't spell-slinging.

[

3. Can be dropped in a party with a bard to memorize something else - Protection from Evil, maybe?

Or the bard can be dropped from the party to make way for another cleric.

Bless is cheap enough to put on a command word activated wondrous item, usable by anyone (even the Rogue!) Can the bard be made into a cheap magic item? Or maybe he _is_ a cheap magic item?

 

[two]

Lasts the length of every battle I've ever DMed or played in.

Barely. The +1 to damage is what we're talkin' about, really. And after 1st level, the cleric spells (like Prayer, Recitation, Wrath of the Faithful, etc) are better than the bard equivalent.

Moreover, while the bard is singing he ain't spell-slinging.

[Or the bard can be dropped from the party to make way for another cleric.

Bless is cheap enough to put on a command word activated wondrous item, usable by anyone (even the Rogue!) Can the bard be made into a cheap magic item? Or maybe he _is_ a cheap magic item?

Yes you win. Clerics are, and always will be, more powerful on paper and often in play than a bard.

You can make the exact same argument about kicking the ranger out of the party, or the rogue, or the monk, or the sorcerer, and replacing them with a tricked-out cleric.

Clerics are ridiculously hard to kill, are full spell casters, have domain powers, and can get cool divine feats, can wear armor&cast, have OK weapon proficiencies, eat undead for breakfast, etc. etc.

True.

So?

 

[Nail]

Well, I can also build a 5 PC party, all clerics, that will rock any other 5 PC build (with only, say, 1-2 clerics).

Errr? I doubt that too.

Frontline fighters (Ftr, Bbn, or Pal) have a place in a balanced party, as do magic-slingers (Wiz, Sor, or Psi), and scouts (Rgr, Rog, Mnk). The Cleric (or Drd) is a crucial piece...but he can't be quite as good at either of those three roles. Sure, he can get close....but that's usually after a few rounds of serious buffing (and at higher level).

As always: YMMV.....as each game/campaign has it's own style. But _all_ clerics? That would be challenging.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Barely. The +1 to damage is what we're talkin' about, really. And after 1st level, the cleric spells (like Prayer, Recitation, Wrath of the Faithful, etc) are better than the bard equivalent.

And stack with the bard equivalent.

Moreover, while the bard is singing he ain't spell-slinging.

But he *is* fighting.

 

[apesamongus]

Moreover, while the bard is singing he ain't spell-slinging.

Well, her can cast 4/5 rounds and still keep singing. (9/10 if he takes 1 feat)

 

[Pielorinho]

Bards, Nail, are buffers/enchanters. Their enchantment spells and supernatural abilities kick the snot out of a cleric's. Especially since bards will usually have a high charisma.

Compare:
COMMAND: First-level cleric spell that basically robs the victim of one round's actions (or two rounds, if the victim flees).
TASHA'S HIDEOUS LAUGHTER: First-level bard spell that robs the victim of one action/level.
BLESS: already covered; inferior in all ways except possibly duration to Bard's song.
ENTHRALL: Clerics get it a level before bards, but bards get something very similar as a bardic music effect.
CHARM SPELLS: Clerics have nothing similar.
DOMINATE SPELLS: Clerics have nothing similar.
SUGGESTION SPELLS: Clerics have nothing similar.

Bards are not just buffers: they're buffers and enchanters.

Daniel

 

[two]

Errr? I doubt that too.

Frontline fighters (Ftr, Bbn, or Pal) have a place in a balanced party, as do magic-slingers (Wiz, Sor, or Psi), and scouts (Rgr, Rog, Mnk). The Cleric (or Drd) is a crucial piece...but he can't be quite as good at either of those three roles. Sure, he can get close....but that's usually after a few rounds of serious buffing (and at higher level).

As always: YMMV.....as each game/campaign has it's own style. But _all_ clerics? That would be challenging.

Oh, I don't think it would be particularly challenging -- at all. At least at levels 10+. Piece of cake, really. Once cleric could be the "buff master" and do all the buffing for the party in advance, or during the fight as required. The rest just blast away. The melee cleric can wade into battle and do his/her thing, whatever. These guys would NEVER die, I mean... one goes down, a heal is cast, and then there are 3 full cleric actions left. The amount of firepower they could bring to bear...just scary. Not to mention all the other tactical options (summoning, bindings, magic item use with magic domain power, etc. etc. ).

That's scary.

5 level1 clerics... well, that's not spectacular, but they can hold their own until their spells start to get increasingly potent. I'd say by level 4 or 5, 5 clerics would overmatch a more "typically" balanced party of 5, with one rogue, one wiz, one fighter, one cleric, one X.

I honestly don't think it would be that close, but it wuold be fun to play out. Like, best out of 7, grudge match, clerics vs. the world! LOL.

Now 5 clerics vs. 5 druids. That's just. That's nasty. Way too close to call, but my money is on them clerics.

Honestly -- in any game you have ever played -- have you EVER seen a cleric DIE except from the most crazed of situations (rolling a 1 on a save, teleported accidentally next to a red dragon, etc.)? I mean, I know they do die...but typically after the rest of the party is toast, or fleeing.

 

[Nail]

And stack with the bard equivalent.

Oooh, got me. Howver, IIRC, there are morale bonus spells for the cleric at higher level too. Still good point.

[But he *is* fighting.

But given his AC, BAB, and lack of sneak attack, the rogue is better. At some level the question will be "why is the bard even bothering?"

CHARM SPELLS: Clerics have nothing similar.
DOMINATE SPELLS: Clerics have nothing similar.
SUGGESTION SPELLS: Clerics have nothing similar.

Bards are not just buffers: they're buffers and enchanters.

Granted, but other classes (Wiz, Sor, Psi) do enchantment better...and they're not neutered when those immune to enchantments come allong. ...Which they always do.

 

[Nail]

Oh, I don't think it would be particularly challenging -- at all. At least at levels 10+. Piece of cake, really.

IOW - Caveat number one - the APL must be 10 or higher. Gotcha.

Once cleric could be the "buff master" and do all the buffing for the party in advance, or during the fight as required. The rest just blast away. The melee cleric can wade into battle and do his/her thing, whatever.

The problem would be the "wade into battle" part. Even with 5 clerics, the balanced team could be set-up faster. And in higher level combats, the first round often determines the outcome of the whole battle.

One of the magic-slinging categories a cleric really has to work at is battle field control...meanwhile the Wiz/Sor has those types of spells comeing out of their ears. It can be done by a cleric, of course...Blade barrier is a spell my Clr 15 loves. But versus EBT, for example? Cleric spells don't hold a candle.

[

5 level1 clerics... well, that's not spectacular, but they can hold their own until their spells start to get increasingly potent.

I'm not so sure (even tho' I love the cleric class). Having a Ftr/Bbn up there to play off of would be sorely missed. And ranged attacks? Eek.

I honestly don't think it would be that close, but it wuold be fun to play out. Like, best out of 7, grudge match, clerics vs. the world! LOL.

Now 5 clerics vs. 5 druids. That's just. That's nasty. Way too close to call, but my money is on them clerics.

I'd bet on that...and I'd play the cleric in the balanced party.

Honestly -- in any game you have ever played -- have you EVER seen a cleric DIE except from the most crazed of situations....

Since I play the clerics in our party?

Nope, never had a cleric die. (Uh-oh, is my DM reading this?)

In the game I DM, the cleric died third, after the Bbn/Ftr and the Drd.