Bards just don't convince me!

[bodhi]

I hate them because it just seems absurd to sing in combat.

So, don't sing "It's a Small World".

Go into battle chanting a Maori haka, feet stomping, eyes bulging.

Or screaming "you will die / when I say / you will die".

Or reciting "For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother".

Or, you could just do "99 orcs on their feet in the field". Of course, then you risk your own party trying to shut you up.

 

[Methos]

Personally, I love bards, both as a player and as a DM, but it does depend to a certain degree on knowing what style of campaign you are playing in order to come up with the right build as a player.

If I know that the campaign is urban driven vs. dungeon driven vs. wilderness driven, as a player, I will build a very different character. But, I can build a very effective character once I have an idea of the campaign style. Similarily, it is helpful to know if the DM's style is more combat oriented, or more role playing oriented. In either case, the bard can be very effective, and this reinforces the "jack of all trades view" of the bard.

Finally, as a DM, I love having a bard in the campaign, since they are so flexible, I can toss almost anything at the players and with some degree of certainty, the players can be successful.

cheers

methos

 

[jabberwocky]

At some level the question will be "why is the bard even bothering?"

well, from my experience so far, my barb1/bard8 is very effective. granted i'm a fifth character along with a paladin, a druid and two rogues, so my bardic music bonus gets spread to many people, and also to the mount and animal companion. When coupled with song of the heart, everyone is getting a +3 to hit and damage, which is often the difference between hitting and missing, and the +3 damage adds up on the 15 attacks we get a round (not counting summoned creatures, going to more than 20 when i've cast haste).

and aside from the bonus i'm giving everyone else, i can do damage comparable to anyone else in the party. first round - inspire courage, second round - rage/charge/leap attack/full power attack. I'm at +11 to hit/1d8+32 for the initial charge, then +13/+8 for 1d8+15 when only power-attacking a little. If it looks like a tough battle, i'll cast haste as well.

plus i can cast cures, confusion, identify, tongues, etc, so i have stuff to do outside of the battle, as well as more options inside it. And I'm going into seeker of the song, so in a few levels i'll be able to do the above, but combine inspire competence with inspire courage simultaneously, and full attack my enemies while throwing 15d6 (supernatural!) energy blasts around.

This character would have been more effective, and probably be a lot more defensively sound, if i had gone for archery instead of two handed weapons, and if i had taken spells like inspirational boost, harmony, etc.

I'll grant that I could have made non-bard characters that were more effective, but that doesn't mean that my current character is non-effective.

 

[Shadowdweller]

IMO, the bard is one of those classes that requires a good DM in order for it to be effective (same with an illusionist). If your DM is dismissive of bards, it's probably a bad idea to play one. But if your DM is willing to cater to a bard's strengths (role-playing and interaction in social settings), then it has the potential to be a superb class. For a dungeon crawl, it sucks. For a city adventure, it's awesome. The bard has the potential to be the Rock Star of any city setting.

Completely agree. I've known sooo many DMs who shortchange stealth, or social interaction skills. Or don't let illusions actually fool the monsters. Or cases where using the skillset requires the other PCs to go along with said skill user and they don't (scout sneaks carefully ahead to see what's there and the fighter just barges in because he's impatient).

 

[Pielorinho]

Granted, but other classes (Wiz, Sor, Psi) do enchantment better...and they're not neutered when those immune to enchantments come allong. ...Which they always do.

I'm not sure you're right. Bards get enchantment spells before most other classes do: wizards get them one level earlier, but must specifically prepare them, meaning that they ARE neutered when those immune to enchantments come along. And wizards don't have charisma as a primary attribute, so they're not as good at resolving charms, bluffing people in suggestions, etc. Sorcerers get the enchantment spells later than bards do, although they can be pretty good at them. But sorcerers don't get any of the bardic music abilities.

I've been making sure my bard has one enchantment spell and one non-enchantment spell at each spell level. When the enemy is immune to enchantments, that's when I break out the grease, or the major image, or the glitterdust. Again, I've never had a round of combat with nothing to do.

Let me ask: has anyone played a bard and found them to be underpowered? Or is it just that they look underpowered on paper?

Daniel

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

There are plenty of bard builds that do wonderfully in a dungeon crawl.

The whole idea that "bards are only good if the GM panders to them/has social-only encounters tailored for the bard" is really a bunch of hoo-hoo.

If you have a GM dismissive of bard's, that is a perfect chanct to show them what bards can really do. I'd truly relish a challenge of that sort, myself.

Refer to previous posts for ideas about strong bard builds/why bards are effective characters IN combat as well out OUT of combat.

Anything a bard can do, other classes can do much better when it comes to dungeon crawls.

I stand by my comments.

 

[DungeonmasterCal]

Take a look at the variant bards offered in Monte Cook's "Complete Book of Eldritch Might" and Szatany's version on the WotC boards.

 

[kigmatzomat]

MC started 4 years ago at 1st level and has made it to 18th with a bard the whole time. Ehrin, the Bard6/Rogue6/Arcane Archer4/Deepwood Sniper2, has been very helpful despite low hps. (Not the fault of the class, he rolled 1s for 7 levels, ouch!)

Being an archer gives him a lot of damage while staying at range. Point Blank, Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot are 3 excellent combat feats. he's sneaky, perceptive, and not as useless in melee as he thinks. (he still acts like he has 40hps) His AC is fairly good due to the mithral chain and a mithral buckler (10% total arcane spell failure) when he does get swept into combat.

His Inspire Courage provides a steady bonus that helps everyone (it's a party of 6 with 2 cohorts) without inhibiting his sniping. Inspire Greatness is almost as good as a CMW as it can give the nearly-dead fighter (or cleric!) a fist full of hit points and bonuses to saves at distance. Inspire Competence is nothing to sneeze at when applied to the Rogue trying to disable a lock, someone using the heal skill to stabilize the cleric, or when making an Escape Artist check to get away from the Tendriculous trying to eat you.

Bardic Knowledge is great for a DM because it provides hooks and direction. If a player dislikes an NPC they tend to not use their information even if it is vital, bardic lore places a much more neutral appearance to some information. I don't let my players abuse BN but it can be handy just walking into a town and knowing what inns are good to stay at, where to eat, and where to buy horses (DC10 - known to at least a sizeable minority of the local populace).

Try asking questions other than "What do I know about X?" as it tends to paralyze a lot of DMs. For some reason they think it gives the bard the bad guys whole life story. A secret only known by 3 people is unknown by the Bard unless he's one of those 3.
Pay attention to the descriptions on the Bardic Knowledge table as they provide a lot of guidance in a very few words.

In the beginning be specific to acclimatize the DM to bardic knowledge. "Where do these bandits tend to hangouts?" "Does the duke like the baron?" It's pretty easy to decide "this is information that's hard to come by so DC25" and that "anyone who's been to the Duke's court when the baron was present could see the dislike so call it DC20 since most people won't have been to court."

I'm not partial to playing bards (not my style) but I have never been in a game with a bard where they were not thought to pull their own weight.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Anything a bard can do, other classes can do much better when it comes to dungeon crawls.

I stand by my comments.

Sure. But a bard can do just about everything everyone else can do. If the bard sings, instead of the cleric casting Bless, the cleric gets to cast a different spell and the bard still gets to do something else. If the bard casts haste the wizard gets throw a fireball. The rogue gets to go to sleep and leave someone with a high spot on watch if there's a bard.

If the cleric gets hurt, there's the bard. If the wizard gets charmed, there's the bard. If the wizard and cleric are getting mangled by an ettin, the bard can try to fascinate/charm it. If the barbarian is being mangled by a troll, the bard can Inspire Greatness.

Bards, like rogues, make bad front-line combatants but give them a couple tanks to play off of and the fun begins.

Treat bards like flint; they need some steel handy to really make things hot.

 

[Mr. Kaze]

I played a bard recently and came up with the following scenarios. It was a 30 point buy game. That said...

You can use a bard as a Jack-of-all-Trades with lots of skills. Which requires a high Int. And rogues get more skills anyway.

You can use a bard as a spontaneous spellcaster of enchanting variety. Which requires a high Cha. And sorcerors get more spells per day and better selection anyway.

You can use bardic knoweldge to delve into the deepest and most complex riddles. Which requires a high Int and lots of levels of Bard. And that's what a town sage is for anyway.

You can use a bard to heal folks or be diplomatic. But any cleric or druid or paladin (and even some rangers) can do that.

You can use a bard as an archer. Which requires a high Dex. But you don't get the free Ranger feats or the bonus Fighter feats and you're not proficient with a longbow.

You can use a bard for a Dragon Disciple. Assuming you're interested in starting your career as a melee fighter. Which is probably a waste for Dex that you need for your AC at lower levels.

You can Inspire Courage or whatever going into combat. If you've got a standard action to use instead of dishing out damage of your own. I'd rather have a sorceror casting haste that first round, quite frankly... (And if you're singing before combat, then every enemy should be ambushing your noisy heiny.)

You can multiclass and find that either your skills are mismatched or that average BAB really sucks it up. (Rogue/Bard would be decent except for that.)

You can discover that the bard is so laughably outclassed at any given task that half of the thread defending the bard is using non-SRD material. (If you can use it, then maybe it's worth thinking about -- I wouldn't bank on it, though.)

The one thing you can't do with a bard is get hit by a couple of fireballs. Even if you do survive the first couple of blasts, you'll need to be healing your other, more combat-capable party members before you get healed up.

Being a bard is accepting that you're 2nd-best (or worse) at everything and probably, therefore, the least important character in any mostly balanced party. Doesn't strike me as a particularly heroic adventuring sort of chap. I'd recommend looking into a rogue build if the character wants skills or a mystic theurge if the character wants backup spells or a sorceror or mystic (mystic is in DragonLance) if they're going for spontaneous casting. Alternately, a druid built for shapeshifting with Track as a 1st level feat makes a decent replacement for a ranger -- at level 5 the druid was able to track people on solid rock even after 5 days.... add a level or two of monk (BAB sucks, be warned) and things get scary.

Ultimately, the bard is a roleplaying class. But "roleplaying" isn't in the rules -- anybody can do it with any character (even with a charisma of 6 -- gasp!). So I can pretty much guarantee that, given the SRD, that 5th party member is going to be better off with a more mechanical class and roleplaying it for the effect that they want.