Battelstar Galactica in Sweden, worth watching?

Storm Raven said:
I think the fact that they were distracted by the constant running for their life, trying to construct some sort of workable government/command system from almost nothing, and the fact that the creation of a cylon detector was not regarded as a high priority by some of the more powerful people in the fleet (who didn't really believe in humaniform cylons to begin with) more than explains the lack of care.

Running for your life aboard a starship which someone else is running, while stressful, is not necessarily time consuming. Though it is apparent that we're not going to agree on this. I saw plenty of examples of the characters making sub optimal decisions as a rule. I got tired of this. And, no I can't recall them since it's been some time.

Let's make a comparison. You implied earlier that you had watched 4-5 hours of BSG, and that was enough to make an assessment. You also said you liked Babylon 5. If you had watched 4-5 hours of that show, that would mean that you had watched The Gathering, Midnight on the Firing Line, Soul Hunter, and Born to the Purple. Do you truly think you could have formed a worthwhile opinion on the series after that much exposure to it?

Given that I don't memorize episode names, this doesn't do much for me. If you are implying season one, then yes, I gave up on B5 after season one and the pilot, and had to be talked into watching it again. If you are making a case that:
A) The first few episodes and pilot of BSG sucked
and
B) There has been a drastic turnaround in the series

Then you might be able to make a case for me watching it. However if you cannot assure me of both, then I shan't bother.

buzzard
 

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buzzard said:
Running for your life aboard a starship which someone else is running, while stressful, is not necessarily time consuming. Though it is apparent that we're not going to agree on this. I saw plenty of examples of the characters making sub optimal decisions as a rule. I got tired of this. And, no I can't recall them since it's been some time.

And I still haven't seen anything substantial from any critic concerning what these "sub-optimal decisions" are. They didn't contract for military procurement properly is the closest we've come, and that's just unconvincing. Everyone says "they made dumb decisions", but can't point to anything substantial. I find that to be an interesting element to the debate - the detractors base their arguments on "trust me, they are dumb, but I can't give good examples".

Given that I don't memorize episode names, this doesn't do much for me. If you are implying season one, then yes, I gave up on B5 after season one and the pilot, and had to be talked into watching it again. If you are making a case that:

Those are the pilot and the first three episodes of B5. Which, in retrospect, actually are fairly good at presaging what comes later (if you go back and view them knowing the rest of the series, a lot of stuff in season one starts to look very interesting).

A) The first few episodes and pilot of BSG sucked
and
B) There has been a drastic turnaround in the series

Then you might be able to make a case for me watching it. However if you cannot assure me of both, then I shan't bother.

The pilot was weak, I didn't like it, and when I saw it, I was convinced that the series was going to be bad (but not for the same reasons you seem to dislike it, I thought that the pilot had every imaginable WWII era film trope, just rehashed in space, condemning it to unoriginality). The series gets better as you go, because the characters develop and their decisions make sense based upon who the characters are. These are, generally, not the people who one would normally expect to be in command, because they aren't very good at it, but there are few alternatives, meaning that their mistakes make sense in context.

(By the way, anyone who uses the word "shan't" in earnest is suspect in my book).
 

Storm Raven said:
And I still haven't seen anything substantial from any critic concerning what these "sub-optimal decisions" are. They didn't contract for military procurement properly is the closest we've come, and that's just unconvincing. Everyone says "they made dumb decisions", but can't point to anything substantial. I find that to be an interesting element to the debate - the detractors base their arguments on "trust me, they are dumb, but I can't give good examples".

It's funny. You said you read his critique, but you must have glossed over it. His point was that choosing somone who is demonstrably questionable to make a crucial device and then not testing it is dumb. In fact any example of them trusting Balthus is dumb because he exhibits plenty of evidence of his choo choo having gone round the bend. You may not want to recognize sub optimal decisions, but other people defending BSG in this thread do. If you think I'm going to watch episodes of a show I don't like to make you happy by finding specific examples, don't hold your breath.

Those are the pilot and the first three episodes of B5. Which, in retrospect, actually are fairly good at presaging what comes later (if you go back and view them knowing the rest of the series, a lot of stuff in season one starts to look very interesting).

While there are story elements present in season one which are interesting, the bad acting, bad dialog, and bad special effects are pretty show stopping for me. In no objective sense do I accept that B5 season one was good.

The pilot was weak, I didn't like it, and when I saw it, I was convinced that the series was going to be bad (but not for the same reasons you seem to dislike it, I thought that the pilot had every imaginable WWII era film trope, just rehashed in space, condemning it to unoriginality). The series gets better as you go, because the characters develop and their decisions make sense based upon who the characters are. These are, generally, not the people who one would normally expect to be in command, because they aren't very good at it, but there are few alternatives, meaning that their mistakes make sense in context.

So now, you admit that they make mistakes (er, maybe sub optimal decisions?). Are you debating me or yourself?
Of course one difficulty I have with the series, is I didn't really like ANY of the characters. As such I'm not going to waste my time finding out what happens to them.

(By the way, anyone who uses the word "shan't" in earnest is suspect in my book).

Well I'll just cry myself to sleep over being suspect.

buzzard
 

Mallus said:
Stupid like sending the captain, chief medical officer, head scientist, engineer, and sometimes the helmsman and navigator for good measure, down to every dangerous, unexplored planet first?

Now that's stupid... :)
Perhaps, but then Star Trek: TNG made the Away Team more boring for the E-D Captain as a character whose only memorable moment is perfecting his Picard Maneuver (pulling down the front of his uniform top).

*wet raspberry shower* :p
 

buzzard said:
Running for your life aboard a starship which someone else is running, while stressful, is not necessarily time consuming. Though it is apparent that we're not going to agree on this. I saw plenty of examples of the characters making sub optimal decisions as a rule. I got tired of this. And, no I can't recall them since it's been some time.

Given that I don't memorize episode names, this doesn't do much for me. If you are implying season one, then yes, I gave up on B5 after season one and the pilot, and had to be talked into watching it again. If you are making a case that:
A) The first few episodes and pilot of BSG sucked
and
B) There has been a drastic turnaround in the series

Then you might be able to make a case for me watching it. However if you cannot assure me of both, then I shan't bother.

Personally, I differentiate between the writers making a sub-optimal choice, and the character making a sub-optimal choice. As long as the character's choice is understandable, I'm okay with it.

And I feel that most character's choices on BSG are understandable, though I can see someone else feeling that they are not. Of course, I'm cheering for Gaius Baltar, so I may have a different view of the show than most.

As to whether it makes a drastic turnaround is actually a more complicated question. The last part of Season 1 and the first half of Season 2 is where they really hit their stride. In particular, episodes 2.10 - 2.12 are flat-out *superb*, rivalling the best of any other scifi show.

Unfortunately, I feel the writers made a sub-optimal choice in the next episode, and the rest of the season is a lot weaker. Hopefully this coming season will be better.

I actually think that watching the DVDs might be a better way to experience the show. You get more episodes at a time, and you don't need to linger over any one character's actions.
 

More on "Battlestar Galactica"

I'm a little disappointed to see some genre entertainment fans again using differences of opinion as an excuse for personal attacks. However, I think both sides make good points. As someone who has watched all of "Battlestar Galactica" (both the original 1970s campy space opera and the SciFi Channel's current revisionist military drama), I enjoy the current series for what it is and am occasionally annoyed for what it is not. It's not fair, however, to dismiss potential fans who are turned off by early melodrama, a certain style or tone, or plot holes and thus don't continue to watch something. To each his or her own.

I agree with the poster who noted that the necessities of television (and frankly, any) drama mean that you'll always have bridge officers ("Star Trek" starship captains and BSG CAGs) going down to planets to make mistakes that they somehow survive and hopefully learn from. I also agree that the newer show did improve as it hit its stride, although it's more derivative (see the original BSG, "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine," "Space: Above and Beyond," or "Firefly/Serenity") than producer Ron Moore and hardcore fans may acknowledge. Most sci-fi programs take a while for the actors and writers to make the characters interesting.

Back to the original question, if you liked the "more realistic" darker tone of "Babylon 5" or some of "Farscape" and are willing to overlook some illogical behavior on the part of the human (and Cylon) protagonists, you'll probably enjoy the newer BSG. I do feel that for a rag-tag fleet of 50,000 people and dwindling, the lack of martial law or military discipline, the distracting use of 21st century Earth fashions (spiked heels? neckties?), acceptance of a clearly neurotic (if not psychotic) president, some heavy-handed political allegory, and the clear dominance of the enemy in logistical and technological terms means that the show is more about the question "Are we worthy to survive?" than "How will these humans survive?" May the lords of Kobol protect us...
 

GSHamster said:
Of course, I'm cheering for Gaius Baltar, so I may have a different view of the show than most.

Most people I talk to are cheering on Gaius too. Admittedly during the 2nd season, I lost one friend to the anti-Gaius crowd and then again at the end of the 2nd season I lost another.

My girlfriend loves the show, enjoys Gaius, but is mad at him at the moment for the season 2 ender.

Spoiler

the 1st friend got mad at Gaius giving the nuke to Pegasus Six and my girlfriend got mad at Gaius for betraying the human race a 2nd time (the nuke going off, following his libido at the end, and surrendering to the Cylons.) For me, I think Gaius' mistake was in giving a suicidal Six any sort of a weapon, especially a nuke. His ladies at the end didn't bother me since he lost Pegasus Six. I figured they were rebound girls. As for surrendering to the Cylons, what choice did he have?
 

buzzard said:
It's funny. You said you read his critique, but you must have glossed over it. His point was that choosing somone who is demonstrably questionable to make a crucial device and then not testing it is dumb. In fact any example of them trusting Balthus is dumb because he exhibits plenty of evidence of his choo choo having gone round the bend. You may not want to recognize sub optimal decisions, but other people defending BSG in this thread do. If you think I'm going to watch episodes of a show I don't like to make you happy by finding specific examples, don't hold your breath.

In other words, they used sub-optimal contracting methods for acquiring military hardware. Given, of course, that they don't have any real alternatives, and that Gaius already had a reputation as a quirky, but brilliant mind, the fact that they aren't checking up on him on a regular basis isn't that surprising. Especially since the bulk of his oddities take place otu of sight of the other characters, and those that do were scattered among a collection of characters. You, the audience member, see Gaius' wierdness every time, but each character sees him acting oddly once, or maybe twice. And then he mostly just looks distracted, like a lot of other characters (many of whom are having trouble dealing with the fact that billions upon billions of people, including most of their friends and families, were killed within the last few weeks). And, to be quite frank, they point out, over and over again, that they have little choice, because Baltar is, in their current situation, effectively irreplaceable.

You have plenty of evidence that his "choo choo has gone around the bedn", but most of the characters in the show don't. And, of course, it becomes apparent during the course of the show that it is not certain his "choo choo has gone around the bend", because he might be having actual visions of Six that are real, and not just delusions.

While there are story elements present in season one which are interesting, the bad acting, bad dialog, and bad special effects are pretty show stopping for me. In no objective sense do I accept that B5 season one was good.

Then you are missing out on some good stuff. Sure, Infection is a bad episode (as are all the "monster" episodes in the show, no matter the season, case in point is Grey 17 Is Missing. a later season episode), and a couple others are weak too, but things like Signs and Portents, Babylon Squared, and numerous other episodes are really quite good, especially given how they foreshadow later events, and set the stage. As for the acting, since the only change in cast was basically, Michael O'Hare for Bruce Boxleitner, you are essentially saying that a single actor in an ensemble piece is a huge problem. Or maybe you are saying that the rest of the cast was somehow different in their acting (perhaps they all went to acting school between seasons one and two?), which I find to be a ludicrous assertion.

(And by the way, the special effects in Season One are the same as in the other seasons. Your citing them as being a big problem for you doesn't really reinforce your argument).

So now, you admit that they make mistakes (er, maybe sub optimal decisions?). Are you debating me or yourself?
Of course one difficulty I have with the series, is I didn't really like ANY of the characters. As such I'm not going to waste my time finding out what happens to them.

No one ever said they made great decisions every time. Protagonists who make the right decisions every time make for boring stories (kind of like Johnny Ringo's books), but their decisions make sense from the perspective of the characters and aren't just some sort of deus ex machina tossed out by the writers to make the humans lose. And, of course, the humans aren't the only ones who make mistakes. The cylons seem to screw up too.

Of course, you didn't like them because they made "dumb decisions", which makes your argument a little circular. And odd, since you can't actually remember them doing anything that was supposedly dumb.
 

Storm Raven said:
<lots snipped>

Ok, I'm done. I've had enough words put in my mouth for now. Not to mention the inability to recognize I might have an opinion. Fine. It's the greatest show of all time, and I'll watch it till my eyes bleed. Anything so I don't have to listen to you anymore.

buzzard
 

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