Battle Engineer for Avengers?

[mneme]

I've been mulling over my choices for my (Deva, Retribution, LFR, axe-wielding, of Tempus) Avenger on the cusp of paragon levels.

The problem, of course, is that most Avenger paragon paths are lackluster -- particularly on the Int side.

Dervish of Dawn is ok, but lackluster. I mean, save on AP, defense bonus, defensive enconter, healing utility, and, ok, strikerish 3W daily at 20th.

Watchful Shepard is also really heal-oriented, and dude, implement attacks for an avenger?

Hammer of Judgement is strong, but really wants you weilding a hammer.

Unveiled Visage is all implement-based, though the features are good.

Ardent Champion, Serene Initiate, Watcher of Vengance, and Zealoous Assassin are Dex-based or functionally dex-based (the latter two because they're based on Stealth)

Weapon of Fortune is crud.

Oathsworn is lackluster (the utility is nice, though)

Dread Imperator is Unity-only.

Relentless Slayer is, ok, strong, but I'm turned off by the two worthless features (the L12 utility and the Slayer's Oaths are both worth than useless -- traps that you should never use or seek to take advantage of). Maybe worth retraining into at 20th for the L20 power, but still.

That leaves Favored Soul -- which -is- pretty sweet, at least once you get the L16 flight ability, but the rest is still kinda meh -- heal on AP, +1 defenses until you take damage, Daze+Push+concealment 2W charge attack, daily regen stance (goes well with the defensive boost), nice controllery D20 mutlti-attack. All decent stuff, but nothing that makes you sit up and take notice except the always on flight.

And I'm not interested in investing in Strength and taking a Fighter feature, and Morninglord leaves me a bit cold (as does the prospect of changing gods midstream).

So -- what about the Battle Engineer? The broken utility's been dropped down to a utility, but it's still:

+1 to hit and 1d6 all turn when you spend an AP (which lets you nova with AP + Avenger's Fury + Standard Action and get the bonus thrice).

The L11 encounter power, while Int based, is -more- accurate than a Wis-based power (Int+3 weapon power -- in a build where Int is usually within 2 of Wis) and gives an amazing party nova power -- +Wis (+7 at 11th level) to attack and defense as an Effect. -and- has a ranged option (which is useful if you get the party to suround you and ready and find that there's nothing adjacent on your turn), just in case.

And, of course, while the L12 is now a daily, getting +Int damage (or getting to give it out to the party ranger or other twin-striker) with a great crit effect all encounter is still all kinds of awesome.

The rest is still pretty meh (I'm not even sure you get a benefit from the other class features and Greater Magic Weapon, though I think that's the intention and a +12 attack/+10 damage +brutal1 1/encounter party nova is just obscene), though the daily is at least quite usable and nicely controllery even on a miss).

It seems to me that despite charop not even mentioning that option -- and despite a bunch of wasted (ish) abilities, that's one of the strongest possiblities I've got (not to mention fun). Even for a striker, giving the entire party a huge bonus to attack and damage (while doing a highly accurate 2W attack of your own) is going to be better most 3W or even 4W attacks, I think.

What do people think?

 

[Lancelot]

Consider multi-classing. I have a similar build (deva retribution avenger, axe-wielding), differing only in choice of deity (Kelemvor, for flavor... rather than Tempus, for cheese... assuming you're taking the mandatory / broken Righteous Rage of Tempus feat... ).

I agree with your assessment of avenger paragon paths. Only Favored Soul really appealed to me, and I thought long and hard about it. In the end, I multi'ed into cleric. For the investment of a single feat (Initiate of the Faith - which gives you a "wasted" Religion skill slot, but also a daily use of Healing Word, which ain't bad), you open up two outstanding paragon paths.

1) Radiant Servant. This was the one I ended up choosing, because it fit well with the flavor of being an undead-slaying Kelemvorite. The AP power (+1/2 level on attacks for a nova-round)... the 19-20 crit on radiant powers (and Avengers have lots of radiant powers, inlcluding at-wills)... and even the class powers. Awesome. Note that the 11th level attack power has been nerfed in the latest errata, but is still good. This is simply a great striker Paragon Path.

2) Warpriest. Yes, one of the abilities is completely wasted (+1 AC when wearing heavy armor). But everything else is good. Further, it's awesome for the flavour of a Tempus worshipper. Note that the 11th level power has been errated so it's a weapon attack, which is good. And check out the other class abilities - they are phenomenal for a striker.

 

[OpenPalm]

Other decent striker Paragon Paths:
Simbarch of Aglarond: NeedsWizard Multiclass, FRPG. You'll want to switch to a fullblade and take Arcane Implement proficiency:Heavy Blade to really get good usage off its striker feature. Salves of Power can also help recharge the feature so you can use it more than once a battle.
Kensai: Fighter, PHB(take Brawling Warrior as your multiclass feat with Wis 13) Boring, but +1 to Attack and +4 to Damage is not bad.
Dreadnought, Martial Power. Adds toughness, good for the Retribution Avenger
Feytouched (PHB) could be an option, as could Long Night Scion (Dragon 374 I think), but it would take a fair share of feats for your character to become a slasher. That, and I'm not sure you have the 13 Cha necessary for the MC feat.

 

[mneme]

A bunch of those are quite good, yes (the problem with most Avenger PPs, I think, is that they emphasize Avenger-as-pseudodefender, not Avenger-as-striker--or at best emphasize mobility).

That said, any thoughts on the thread title? It seems to me that pound for pound, BE is very close to Warpriest (+1/+1d6 as an AP feature, an amazing 11E, a more or less equivalent (for Avengers) 20D, but post-eratta, Fleeting Dweomer is obviously worse than the encounter reroll plus the mark/punish ability plus the "get a daily back on a 20" daily).

Warpriest gets the nod (though I'm really stacking it wrong; Battle Cry is mediocre for avengers and doesn't compare well to Greater Magic Weapon, but WP has 5 good to great features compared to 1 amazing feature and 2 good ones) -- but OTOH, artificers have a better multiclass daily (slightly) and +1 skill (which matters, though Arcana is one of the "common" skills).

Part of the question, really, is how much longer paragon fights are than high heroic. If you're expecting 3 round fights, "we get a party nova every fight" stacks up a lot better against static damage increases of the Simarch or Kensai (who has the problem that he has one good feature for this purpose) -- DPR is a much better measure when R=6 than when R=3.

 

[Felon]

I kind of feel the same way. I built a dwarven avenger modeled after a Warhammer troll-slayer. Jaw-dropping AC, great HP, but the PP's are kind of "meh". And the at-will....What's the deal with them? Not much quality there at all, particularly if you don't use an implement.

I wanted to do a jagged executioner axe, but the only axe I found that I could use as an implement is the brahaman's blad, which is more paladiny. Hammers are a different matter. I guess I could do a mordenkrad, but the brutal property is wasted on a crit, and 2d6 happens to have the same maximum number as 1d12. So, I have to decide if I want orgasmic crits, or attack diversity. Decisions, decisions...

 

[Felon]

Other decent striker Paragon Paths:
Simbarch of Aglarond: NeedsWizard Multiclass, FRPG. You'll want to switch to a fullblade and take Arcane Implement proficiency:Heavy Blade to really get good usage off its striker feature. Salves of Power can also help recharge the feature so you can use it more than once a battle.
Kensai: Fighter, PHB(take Brawling Warrior as your multiclass feat with Wis 13) Boring, but +1 to Attack and +4 to Damage is not bad.
Dreadnought, Martial Power. Adds toughness, good for the Retribution Avenger
Feytouched (PHB) could be an option, as could Long Night Scion (Dragon 374 I think), but it would take a fair share of feats for your character to become a slasher. That, and I'm not sure you have the 13 Cha necessary for the MC feat.

How many of these key off Wisdom? Fighter PP's are cool and all, but Str can be hard to come by (which is a tragedy, since the class just screams for Power Attack).

 

[Obryn]

I don't think it's that big a deal to have an implement that's one lower + than your weapon, if your implement attacks are secondary. Maybe that's just me, though! I can't stand needing both a weapon and an implement, but every character I've built that needed both has seemed like they'd do fine.

I can completely understand why most Avengers concentrate only on Weapon attacks. I mean, without the Oath, they're at about half their effectiveness. But some Avenger implement powers are honestly badass... Particularly their Dailies.

In particular, I'd advise any Avenger to take a ranged implement power as one of their two At-Wills. Honestly, they'll be using one of their weapon-based At-Wills as their bread & butter attack anyways, and you might as well have some ranged capability in addition to the melee stuff.

But that's just me. I like versatility.

-O

 

[Felon]

Problem is, standard character starting above 1st level gets three items and some cash for sundries. In addition to a weapon, a character needs armor and a necktie. If you throw in an implement, something's gotta give. I suppose you can just resign yourself to having lousy NAD's and cheap out on the necktie.

 

[mneme]

Felon: why assume we're talking about characters starting above 1st level? Isn't that the exceptional case?

(such characters are substantially under-itemed compared to those grown organically).

I agree with Obryn, btw -- one of your Avenger at-wills should be Radiant Vengeance (+temps, good range, good damage) or Bond of Censure (great control, benefits from oath). I disagree about the Avenger melee at-wills. Leading Strike is a nice leaderish at-will; Overwhelming Strike is lovely and can be a basic attack with Power of Skill. Focused Fury is a trap, but you don't have to take it, so that's ok.

The good Avenger Daily Implement powers are the ones that have an effect that's worth the power by themselves, so you don't care that much that you're not getting your bonus damage. That said, the problem, a lot of the time, is that Avengers usually have a weapon daily at every level that -also- has a great effect--assuming you're not making a Glaring Admonition build.

 

[TarionzCousin]

Yes, one of the abilities is completely wasted (+1 AC when wearing heavy armor).

Wasted? But look how cool an Avenger in heavy armor looks: