Battle Pyres

[brehobit]

Forked from: warpriest questions

I was hoping to get some futher thought from people about how they read Battle Pryes RAW and how they'd actually play it.

Battle Pyres seems, well, oddly written. If I read it RAW, it seems that every time you get a hit with the attack you can make a secondary attack. So if you hit the boss and 7 other guys, you do "hit boss, give him on going damage and make a sec. attack. Then for each of the 7 you hit you can make another secondary attack". I suspect that's not the intent, but I'm not sure what is. I guess if you get one or more hits you may take a single secondary attack?

--
Mark

 

[Kordeth]

Every time you hit, you inflict all the effects of a hit. In the case of battle pyres, that includes the secondary attack. It's a very nasty little power.

 

[Fede]

I'm going to repeat here what i said about this topic in the other thread.


The way i read it RAW, you make an attack against every enemy in burst 5. Every enemy hit takes damage, ongoing damage and triggers the "make a secondary attack" part of the hit line. Then, every time you sustain it you make a single secondary attack against one enemy that still has ongoing damage.

Example:
warpriest has 4 orcs in burst 5 radius. He uses Battle pyres. He rolls four attacks, hitting orc1, orc2 and orc3 and missing orc4.

He rolls 2d8+wis radiant damage for orcs number 1, 2 and 3. Also, this 3 orcs receive ongoing radiant damage.
The "make a secondary attack" part of the hit line is triggered 3 times, so he can make 3 secondary attacks to the 3 orcs that were hit.
As i read it, he can make one attack against each of the orcs, or two attacks against one and one against another, or all three attacks against the same orc.
In his subsequent rounds, as long as at least one of the orcs is still taking ongoing radiant damage, he can make a single secondary attack against one of those orcs that still haven't saved against ongoing damage.

This is my reading from a strictly RAW point of view, and it looks overpowered to me. I'd think that the secondary attack should only be triggered once the round the power is used. I would've written it this way:

Hit: 2d8 + Wisdom modifier damage, and ongoing 5 radiant damage (save ends).
Effect: if at least one enemy is hit, make a secondary attack
Secondary Target: One creature taking ongoing radiant
damage within 5 squares of you
Secondary Attack: Wisdom vs. Reflex
Hit: 5d10 + Wisdom modifier damage.
Sustain Standard: You can make the secondary attack in
subsequent rounds as long as at least one of your primary
targets is taking ongoing radiant damage.

 

[Kordeth]

I'm going to repeat here what i said about this topic in the other thread.


The way i read it RAW, you make an attack against every enemy in burst 5. Every enemy hit takes damage, ongoing damage and triggers the "make a secondary attack" part of the hit line. Then, every time you sustain it you make a single secondary attack against one enemy that still has ongoing damage.

Exactly correct. There is nothing in the power that separates "make a secondary attack" from any other result of the "Hit" line. Arguing that the secondary attack only applies once is equivalent to suggesting that the damage from the attack only occurs once.

 

[mlangsdorf]

I think you're wrong. The secondary attack is not part of the "Hit" line, its an Effect. Effects occur whether you hit or miss.

Admittedly, this Effect is worded a little oddly, but it is nevertheless clear: if you hit with at least 1 primary attack, you get a secondary attack.

You do not get a secondary attack per hit. Nothing in the power suggests that should happen.

 

[brehobit]

Yeah,
I guess we all agree. That said, it makes for a crazy powerful power in an ideal situation. And the sustain standard seems, well, like a weak tack-on by comparison. Very odd.

Just playing with making a level 30 fighter/warpriest/demi-god and finding all kinds of weirdnesses with the warpriest.

Edit: mlangsdorf, are you looking at the power as written in the PHB or the suggested correction above?

Thanks,
Mark

 

[abyssaldeath]

Area and close attacks are a single attack, unlike melee and range attacks that have multiple targets. Since are and close attacks are a single attack, signified my the single damage roll, they secondary attack would only trigger once.

 

[Kordeth]

I think you're wrong. The secondary attack is not part of the "Hit" line, its an Effect. Effects occur whether you hit or miss.

Admittedly, this Effect is worded a little oddly, but it is nevertheless clear: if you hit with at least 1 primary attack, you get a secondary attack.

You do not get a secondary attack per hit. Nothing in the power suggests that should happen.

You'd be correct if the Secondary Attack was an Effect, but it's not.

Battle Pyres Warpriest Attack 20
You call upon a powerful prayer that turns your enemies into pyres ablaze with radiant energy.
Daily ✦ Divine, Implement, Radiant
Standard Action Close burst 5
Primary Target: Each enemy in burst
Attack: Wisdom vs. Will
Hit: 2d8 + Wisdom modifier damage, and ongoing 5 radiant damage (save ends). Make a secondary attack.
Secondary Target: One creature taking ongoing radiant damage within 5 squares of you
Secondary Attack: Wisdom vs. Reflex
Hit: 5d10 + Wisdom modifier damage.
Sustain Standard: You can make the secondary attack in subsequent rounds as long as at least one of your primary targets is taking ongoing radiant damage.

"Make a secondary attack" is part of the Hit line. It's not an effect.

Area and close attacks are a single attack, unlike melee and range attacks that have multiple targets. Since are and close attacks are a single attack, signified my the single damage roll, they secondary attack would only trigger once.

Following this logic, where do you draw the line? "Make a secondary attack" is part of the Hit line, every bit as much as "2d8 + Wisdom modifier damage" or "ongoing 5 radiant damage (save ends)." Do those Hit effects only trigger once? What if it was "2d8 + Wisdom modifier damage and the target is stunned?" What if it was "2d8 + Wisdom modifier damage, and an ally within 5 squares makes a saving throw?" Where do you decide which part of the Hit effect applies every time you successfully hit a target and which part only applies once per use of the power?

 

[N8Ball]

Area and close attacks are a single attack, unlike melee and range attacks that have multiple targets. Since are and close attacks are a single attack, signified my the single damage roll, they secondary attack would only trigger once.

I would agree that burst, blast and area attacks are a single attack, signified by the single damage roll made, but they have multiple targets, and multiple HITs due to the multiple To-Hit rolls, and therefore you need to read the Hit: line multiple times.

If the secondary attack was only intended to be made just once (on the initial attack) then it would have been written like Chain lightning where there is no wording "make a secondary attack" in the primary hit line, it just lists the secondary attack below that without an indent, so that you read the Secondary attack line just once.

Here's Chain lightning for reference

Primary Target: One creature
Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Hit: 4d6 + Intelligence modifier lightning damage.
Secondary Targets: Two creatures within 5 squares of the primary target
Secondary Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Hit: 2d6 + Intelligence modifier lightning damage.
Tertiary Targets: All other enemies within 20 squares of you
Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Hit: 1d6 + Intelligence modifier lightning damage.

 

[abyssaldeath]

That's not even a fair comparison. Chain lightning is a ranged power, not a close or area, and it doesn't depend on the main attack hitting.