D&D 5E Battlemaster: 18th level feature

[Zalabim]

Let me just explain each line.

[sblock]Rapier+Shield (This is the trickster in melee, has duelist style.)

11.5*.65+4.5*.05=7.7*3+14.1=37.2 (Damage from one attack, damage from an Attack action separated out because I need that for Action Surge)

14.1 (average round's sneak attack. 14*[1-(.35*.35*.35)+.05])

31*.65+24*.05=21.35 (Riposte's damage, should be the highest damage superiority die use.)

744+21.35*5+23.1=106.75+767.1=873.85+2SR=1133.55 (20 rounds + superiority dice + action surge's attacks. So one day's damage with no rests and finally the day's damage with two short rests.)

Greatsword+GWM (This is the BM. Has GW style, rerolls already included.)

23.33*.4+8.33*.05=9.75*4=39+.1855*9.75=40.81 (Same reasoning here. One attack's damage, Attack action's damage, then the chance to get a bonus attack from critting[1-(.95*.95*.95*.95)]. Extra chance to get at least one crit from action surge not included, but it's minor in the final tally.)

30.66*.4+15.66*.05=13.05 (Riposte's damage using the bonus damage lowered to hit option. It's lower, so unused.)

20.66*.65+15.66*.05=14.212 (Riposte's damage without using the bonus damage option.)

816.2+78+14.212*6=894.2+85.272=979.472+2SR=1306.01 6 (Same thing, different order, sorry. 20 Rounds + Action Surge + Superiority Dice.)

Crossbow+Sharpshooter (Both Trickster and BM using same weapon, feats, style.)

18.5*.5+3.5*.05=9.425*3=28.275+BA+12.95=50.65 (One attack's damage, one Action's damage, sneak attack's damage, then total round damage.)

1013+28.275+27.5=1068.775+2SR=1180.325 (20 rounds of damage + action surge + Superiority dice for bonus damage)


*4=37.7+BA=47.125 (Same weapons, styles, feats, so I skip to the one Action damage and one round damage.)

942.5+75.4+39=1056.9+2SR=1285.7 (20 rounds + Action surges + Superiority damage dice)[/sblock]

Neither of the archer examples accounts for critical hits on superiority die use at all, but it's not a large source of damage to begin with. Precision is better if you know the target's AC.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Thanks, that helps a lot in understanding the assumptions behind the analysis.

In practice I think you'll find that Battlemaster underperforms this analysis/these assumptions don't always hold. Since all of his advantage on cumulative damage comes from his additional Action Surges after the 1st and 2nd short rest, which are basically free rounds, all it takes to lose that advantage is a few rounds where melee attacks cannot be made to cancel out the action surge. (Or a day where you don't have neatly-distributed short rests throughout the day.) That could be because there is no enemy within 35', or it could be because another PC is busy tanking + Dodging which makes it counterproductive for you to attack in melee (because then the Dogging PC gets ignored in favor of the non-dodging one), or it could be because someone like an enemy mage on the back line needs to die nownownow so you have to spend your action Dashing/Disengaging through the enemy line to get in position.

Either way though, I guess the important point is that the battletrickster archer and GWM battlemaster have roughly comparable damage output, so which one you prefer is largely a matter of taste.

Final point, apropos of nothing: a rapier-wielding battletrickster may not be optimized for tanking, given that he doesn't even have Sentinel, but at least he can Trip opponents on an opportunity attack! Plus he can Shove up to three opponents with his regular attacks at +12 to 17(!) to Athletics. An opponent who has to spend half his move on his turn getting to his feet is an opponent who has trouble charging the squishies. It is not as good as Sentinel but it's worth bearing in mind when you are tanking. Too bad it conflicts with Uncanny Dodge...

 

[Fanaelialae]

Hold on--it's not the Battlemaster per se who is getting Ripose every round, it is the melee Battlemaster. The archer wouldn't get it even if he were pure battlemaster 20. Or at least, he wouldn't get it at range, but if he were for some reason tanking on the front lines with a rapier, he'd rapidly discover that d8+4d6+5+d10 is actually a better Riposte than the battlemaster 20's presumed 2d6+5+d12, or 2d6+15+d12 if he power attacks. Riposte actually loses utility for the pure battlemaster relative to the battletrickster--although granted, the archer battletrickster is not specialized for melee and so will be coming from behind before Riposte is taken into account.

Just wanted to clarify my thinking.

I had started out comparing the melee builds of a full Battlemaster to a multiclass Arcane Trickster. I pointed out that since GWM and sneak attack cannot be combined, the Battlemaster would have a clear edge.

You then clarified that the Arcane Trickster was intended as an archer, and therefore would have access to Sharpshooter which would put them on equal footing as far as those feats are concerned.

Therefore, I was comparing the melee Battlemaster, to your archer AT. Tank vs DPS. Which, in fairness, is a bit like comparing apples and oranges but I think that there is relevant data which can be sorted from the noise in such an analysis. Each has certain advantages that the other won't generally have access to in fulfillment of its role, and in the Battlemaster's case one of those is being able to use Riposte with regularity (should he desire to do so).

The main function of a tank as I see it isn't damage, it's survivability while you hold a strongpoint against enemies while your allies kill kill. From this perspective, Riposte actually isn't a very good tank ability at all because once you've used your reaction to Riposte, there is nothing at all to prevent the enemy from bypassing you and hitting the squishies behind you--and if they were going to hit the squishies anyway, then Riposte was useless (you would have gotten an opportunity attack anyway). Many enemies won't do that for various reasons of course. But even against those foes, it's hard to argue that having one option (Riposte for 18 points of damage) is superior to having multiple options (Riposte for 28 points of damage, or Shield for +5 to AC, or Cunning Action for half damage against this attack).

You are correct. The main purpose of a tank is to be the center of the enemy's attention and attract attacks. However, there are many means to achieve this end.

One way is indeed to utilize control to limit an enemy's ability to attack others, like the 4e Defender role typically did. The Battlemaster's maneuvers may be one of the most effective tools in 5e with respect to this.

However, another approach is to be such a massive threat that the enemy is between a rock and a hard place. If the Battlemaster can deal damage comparable to the rogue archer, then enemies engaged with the Battlemaster are far less likely to go after the archer. What's the point of wasting time trying to chase down the rogue when a similar threat is right there? If you chase the rogue the fighter will get a free attack and probably chase after you. If you stay he'll probably riposte. For the monsters it's a no-win scenario, which is the best kind from a player's perspective.

BTW, if "take out a mage on the back line is your criteria", that's a job for an archer anyway, not a tank. The tank won't get to Riposte the mage, and he'll take a bunch of opportunity attacks getting to the back line, since he doesn't have Cunning Action or anything , so he'll end up doing maybe 10% more damage than the archer on his nova while taking say 30 or 40 points of damage to himself, compared to zero for the archer.

I was postulating a scenario that is reasonable and likely for an archer, to illustrate that it's unreasonable to assume that the Arcane Trickster would benefit from sneak attack 100% of the time. Obviously that is not a job for a tank. He will have his own challenges to deal with while the archer is taking out the mage.

Well, de gustibus non disputandum est. Thanks for the discussion, it was useful.

Indeed, thanks for the discussion!

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

However, another approach is to be such a massive threat that the enemy is between a rock and a hard place. If the Battlemaster can deal damage comparable to the rogue archer, then enemies engaged with the Battlemaster are far less likely to go after the archer. What's the point of wasting time trying to chase down the rogue when a similar threat is right there? If you chase the rogue the fighter will get a free attack and probably chase after you. If you stay he'll probably riposte. For the monsters it's a no-win scenario, which is the best kind from a player's perspective.

That's not a no-win scenario though. There are two clearly optimal strategies, depending on what the monster wants to accomplish. If it just wants to survive, retreat once the PCs have shown that they have fangs. Even a 10% chance of death isn't worth it--from a monster's perspective, PC parties are almost always double-Deadly threats, quadruple-Deadly threats or worse. But if it doesn't can't (e.g. we're dealing with organized hobgoblin soldiers in a military squad) it can "win" by going defensive locally and Dodging the guy with the greataxe, relying on his buddies with longbows to fill the archer full of arrows. Another strategy (which wouldn't actually work but he wouldn't know it and so might try it) is to grapple/prone the battlemaster to give him disadvantage on everything--and grappling/pushing doesn't trigger Riposte.

But let's say we're talking about a lone, fanatical monster whose only goal is to kill as many PCs as possible before dying. E.g. a summoned Goristro who's been given the task of wiping out the PCs. Riposte still isn't helpful. Either the archer is so fast that the Goristro cannot catch him, ever (making the battlemaster superfluous), or he's not. If he's not, the clearly optimal thing for the Goristro to do, whether or not it realizes it, is to ignore the battlemaster and charge the rogue. You take the same reaction attack from the battlemaster that you were going to take anyway, you impose disadvantage on the archer's attacks, you damage the presumably-softer target, you may or may not prevent the battlemaster from getting any regular attacks on you this turn (depends on his movement rate and on the geometry of the battle), you do a ton of extra damage due to charge (because you're a Goristro), and you get a huge opportunity attack on the archer when he tries to flee. There's no comparison between that and "sitting in melee with the battlemaster tanking arrows".

Against the battletrickster, of course, that option is illusory. He's too fast for the Goristro to engage in anything but the most cramped, indoor terrain. But in situations where the Goristro has a choice, the archer is a better target.