D&D 5E Battlemaster and Superiority Dice are causing martials to suffer.

[Undrave]

The point is not everyone wants to play a meatshield fighter who can hold the line. I know I don't. I don't play fighters a lot, but when I do they are generally either using bows of flying around the battlefield delivering strikes to specific enemies. If I want someone to "hold the line" and control, I am probably going to build a wizard or cleric for that, because their spell availability and selection make them better at it. Not saying you can't build a fighter for that, you can, but they are not ideal in that role.

What?! I'm sorry... WHAT?!

The most basic trope of DnD is "Wizard is a squishy artillery at the back and the melee guys stop the enemy from rushing the squishy". That's like DnD 101! Maybe in practice, by an experienced group of player, a Wizard's control ability might be better at holding off enemy (because: lol spells), but that's not the instinctual route people go to!

And even if people don't want to play a meatshield fighter... THE MECHANIC SHOULD STILL BE THERE! There is no reason there is no base mechanic like Goading Attack that a Fighter could just go for. Heck, make it a Fighting style if you want, but it should EXIST! And no, Sentinel doesn't count because you only get 1 opportunity attack, its utility is in punishing, not in motivating an enemy to go after you.

Fighters are proficient in 49 different weapons and armor at first level, in addition to a fighting style and 2nd wind. At 1st level Wizards have 9 spells, including cantrips they have to keep track of.

Dude... Most weapons don't matter. There's only three options for a fighter: Ranged, one handed or two handed. Everything else is absurdly pointless. You pick the highest damage die in that category you chose and the damage type is nothing but aesthetic. It doesn't matter. I don'T even know why weapon damage type even exist.

 

[Undrave]

I have seen people talk about Warlords, but it is hard for me to believe you can't recreate those mechanics with options already available. Something like Battlemaster or Banneret subclass with superior technique fighting style and a Bard multiclass.

The Banneret is pratically the WORSE subclass in the game, fighting for the position with like... the Trickery Cleric, the original Battlemaster and the Battlerager Barbarian.

In any case, when trying to build my own Warlord class, the GIANT obstacle I found is that 5e went back to the dichotomy of Attack Rolls VS Saving Throw. In 4e, where the offensive character always rolls, granting a +1 attack bonus to your ally was universally good. In 5e, if you do that to the Wizard he's gonna shrug and Fireball the bad guys ANYWAY. The ammount of verbose nonsense you have to include to allow a Warlord to help martial and casters alike is frankly annoying.

the lack of Healing Surges also hurts the game.

5e is just a terrible frame to make engaging and interesting support classes. The Cleric, in particular, is as dull as dish water and the Bard is only fun if you go all beguiller or illusionist with a side of healing.

Tracking extra dice is what scared people away from any awesome idea of 5E Psionics.

When I play a Battlemaster I just take out a bunch of D8s and line them up above my character sheet and when I use a superiority dice I take it from there and put it in my general pool after use. I even bought a bunch of matching D8s specifically for the purpose.

And for my monk's ki points, I use little beads counter they use in M:TG.

 

[ECMO3]

The most basic trope of DnD is "Wizard is a squishy artillery at the back and the melee guys stop the enemy from rushing the squishy". That's like DnD 101! Maybe in practice, by an experienced group of player, a Wizard's control ability might be better at holding off enemy (because: lol spells), but that's not the instinctual route people go to!

Exactly it is a trope and I find new players pick this up pretty easy, it is mostly the older players that cling to the stereotypes.

And even if people don't want to play a meatshield fighter... THE MECHANIC SHOULD STILL BE THERE! There is no reason there is no base mechanic like Goading Attack that a Fighter could just go for. Heck, make it a Fighting style if you want, but it should EXIST! And no, Sentinel doesn't count because you only get 1 opportunity attack, its utility is in punishing, not in motivating an enemy to go after you.

The mechanic is there already. Any Fighter who wants it can get Goading Attack at 1st level. That is already part of the base class through the Superior Technique fighting style .... and Fighter is the ONLY class that gets this option. Other classes could get it through a feat, but no other class has it through a class (or for that matter through a subclass).

Dude... Most weapons don't matter. There's only three options for a fighter: Ranged, one handed or two handed. Everything else is absurdly pointless. You pick the highest damage die in that category you chose and the damage type is nothing but aesthetic. It doesn't matter. I don'T even know why weapon damage type even exist.

Maybe that is how you play the game, but it is not how I play or how most players I have played with play.

Further damage type absolutely does matter, especially at low level unless your DM hand waives it. Put your 1st level Barbarian with his great axe or greatsword and your 1st level Cleric with his class-provided warhammer or mace against some of the most common low level opponents - skeletons, swarms or rot grubs and you will quickly find out that damage type is NOT irrelevant.

Greatswords and Greataxes are the most common two-handed melee weapons at 1st level and they are not optimal, a maul is better and rarely seen IME.

SPOILER ALERT BELOW




Pick up Ghosts of Saltmarsh, read through the first adventure and then tell me how damage type doesn't matter.

 

[ECMO3]

The Banneret is pratically the WORSE subclass in the game, fighting for the position with like... the Trickery Cleric, the original Battlemaster and the Battlerager Barbarian.

In any case, when trying to build my own Warlord class, the GIANT obstacle I found is that 5e went back to the dichotomy of Attack Rolls VS Saving Throw. In 4e, where the offensive character always rolls, granting a +1 attack bonus to your ally was universally good. In 5e, if you do that to the Wizard he's gonna shrug and Fireball the bad guys ANYWAY. The ammount of verbose nonsense you have to include to allow a Warlord to help martial and casters alike is frankly annoying.

I agree the banneret is a weak subclass for the combat pillar of the game. I don't know that it is terrible over all three pillars though. Considering all three pillars and comparing it to other fighters it is behind psi-knight, Eldritch Knight and Battlemaster, but I don't know that it is behind the rest of the Fighter subclasses.

Moreover the post was not about making the most powerful character. If you want that play a Wizard, case closed. The post was about making a Warlord-type character with that flavor.

Also Trickery Cleric is pretty darn fun, IME you can get a ton of mileage out of Invoke Duplicity and either Disguise Self or Cloak of Shadows. Seriously, you have a "perfect" illusion of yourself running around casting spells at enemies and it is invincible and can't be damaged or harmed. If you can't get mileage out of that, then you aren't really trying.

I will also point out that Jester (a Trickery Cleric) was probably the best overall character in the Mighty Nein. In addition to dominating the social aspects, she had the 5th most kills in the party despite being a Cleric. Her 59 kills is just 2 behind Fjord (Hexblade) and 13 ahead of Yasha (Barbarian).

5e is just a terrible frame to make engaging and interesting support classes. The Cleric, in particular, is as dull as dish water and the Bard is only fun if you go all beguiller or illusionist with a side of healing.

Well playing a cleric or Bard as a "support class" is dull as dishwater. Your Cleric should not be the mobile party hospital. That is what healing potions are for. Sure keep healing word available to bring up a downed guy and maybe a lessor restoration to cast between fights.

It seems you are combat focused. If so try a Tempest Cleric, pick a 1-level dip in fathomless Warlock for Booming Blade and nice bonus action attack and go to town. Loads of fun!

In your defense I don't really like playing Bards, except as a multiclass on a high level Fey Wanderer Ranger. However others do like it.

 

[Undrave]

The mechanic is there already. Any Fighter who wants it can get Goading Attack at 1st level. That is already part of the base class through the Superior Technique fighting style .... and Fighter is the ONLY class that gets this option. Other classes could get it through a feat, but no other class has it through a class (or for that matter through a subclass).

OH WOW! Once per short rest?! That is SO generous of you, game! I can't believe I get to matter a whole ONE time every hour!

Exactly it is a trope and I find new players pick this up pretty easy, it is mostly the older players that cling to the stereotypes.

Wait... do newbies easily pick up the 'Caster at the back, melee protect from the front' or is it just a thing only old player cling to?

And even if it's a trope... it's one born out of real world wars, where the archers would stand behind lines of footmen with shields and spear. It's not like it comes out of nowhere.

Further damage type absolutely does matter, especially at low level unless your DM hand waives it. Put your 1st level Barbarian with his great axe or greatsword and your 1st level Cleric with his class-provided warhammer or mace against some of the most common low level opponents - skeletons, swarms or rot grubs and you will quickly find out that damage type is NOT irrelevant.

There's like a handful of critters for whom it matter, and some of the most common type of enemies (Goblin, Kobolds, Orcs) that people might encounter in every day adventures are totally neutral. You have to literally go out of your way to make damage type matters because they're so inconsequential. And then, if they do, well the Casters just but out one more spell than they normally would. Or you can easily find a replacement weapon that'll, at worse, knock you down 1 dice size, which is pretty minimal for a fight.

Also, can I say that the whole 'skeleton resist piercing and slashing damage" thing is REALLY stupid? A sword is still a giant stick of metal! It should totally be able to chop through bones. Anything is a bludgeoning weapon if you try hard enough.

 

[Undrave]

Well playing a cleric or Bard as a "support class" is dull as dishwater. Your Cleric should not be the mobile party hospital. That is what healing potions are for. Sure keep healing word available to bring up a downed guy and maybe a lessor restoration to cast between fights.

It seems you are combat focused. If so try a Tempest Cleric, pick a 1-level dip in fathomless Warlock for Booming Blade and nice bonus action attack and go to town. Loads of fun!

In your defense I don't really like playing Bards, except as a multiclass on a high level Fey Wanderer Ranger. However others do like it.

See, the problem is that I LIKE to play support characters, characters who make other better or protect their allies... but 5e barely has any option that let you synergize with your party. I don't want to just heal, that's like the most boring thing ever... but once you fired off that one Bless you got that's pretty much it for your Cleric. Then you just... chip away at enemies I guess.

If I wanted to play a divine warrior I'd just play a Paladin.

I'm also terrible at playing with Illusion magic, it's just not my thing I guess.

 

[ECMO3]

OH WOW! Once per short rest?! That is SO generous of you, game! I can't believe I get to matter a whole ONE time every hour!

At first level .... and no other class can do that.

There's like a handful of critters for whom it matter, and some of the most common type of enemies (Goblin, Kobolds, Orcs) that people might encounter in every day adventures are totally neutral. You have to literally go out of your way to make damage type matters because they're so inconsequential. And then, if they do, well the Casters just but out one more spell than they normally would. Or you can easily find a replacement weapon that'll, at worse, knock you down 1 dice size, which is pretty minimal for a fight.

Like I said, read the first adventure in Ghosts of Saltmarsh and then tell me damage type does not matter. Weapon damage type will matter in well over half the battles and 1st level characters don't have enough funds for a replacement weapon. Unless you thought about this when you made your weapon choices, you won't have one. I would also argue that Skeletons alone are more common than Orcs and about equal to Kobolds and swarms are as common as all 3 of the types you listed.

Also, can I say that the whole 'skeleton resist piercing and slashing damage" thing is REALLY stupid? A sword is still a giant stick of metal! It should totally be able to chop through bones. Anything is a bludgeoning weapon if you try hard enough.

Skeletons don't resist piercing or slashing damage, they have vulnerability to bludgeoning damage. A sword damages them fine, but a warhammer damages them better.

Moreover your original statement was weapon damage type does not matter, cleary it does if you play RAW.

 

[ECMO3]

... but once you fired off that one Bless you got that's pretty much it for your Cleric. Then you just... chip away at enemies I guess.

Not the Clerics I play. They rarely cast bless too (although it is an effective spell). Shield of Faith, Sanctuary or Protection from Evil and Good are where the 1st level slots are usually going.

If I wanted to play a divine warrior I'd just play a Paladin.

I much prefer playing a Cleric for thos. They get a lot more spells. Get a subclass with heavy armor and martial weapons and pick up booming blade or green flame blade through a subclass, multiclass or feat and you rock!

 

[Haplo781]

At first level .... and no other class can do that.

What does it get to support this play style after first level?

 

[Undrave]

At first level .... and no other class can do that.

Just because it's exclusive doesn't make it GOOD.

Like I said, read the first adventure in Ghosts of Saltmarsh and then tell me damage type does not matter. Weapon damage type will matter in well over half the battles and 1st level characters don't have enough funds for a replacement weapon. Unless you thought about this when you made your weapon choices, you won't have one. I would also argue that Skeletons alone are more common than Orcs and about equal to Kobolds and swarms are as common as all 3 of the types you listed.

In the end, you either have it or you don't and if you're not carrying a whole armory, you can't actually do anything when it becomes an issue. Weapon damages don't change anything in how you play your fighter unless you pick up one of the damage type feats. You just bear the lowered damage and maybe use more shoves or something, but otherwise you just keep attacking, and attacking, and attacking. Maybe you can convince the DM to let you treat a piece of furniture as a great club?

Also, it's super easy to start as a Fighter with two different damage type. A Fighter's starting equipment can let you start with two Martial Weapons and you can pick to start with either a crossbow or handaxes. If you're a Sword and Board guy, a Handaxe is just 1 dice below your warhammer (D8 to D6) and if you didn't go with a shield, you can get 2 dfferent two-handed martial weapons (or maybe you get one main two handed and a versatile one hander in case you find a shield on an Orc?).

I'm sure someone has stats to tell us what is the optimal combination of damage types. I'm gonna say, a bludgeoning weapon and one other should cover all you need.

Damage types matter, but not enough compared to good spell choices and are WAY easier to think about.