D&D 5E BattleMaster vs Champion, an analysis

[Oofta]

OK, first off I want to state that I don't really care that much about DPR. I think both the Champion and BattleMaster are fine classes. Even if BattleMaster does a little more damage based on your assumptions, I think people underestimate the superior athlete, additional fighting style and Survivor traits that the Champion gets. Likewise BattleMaster can have more flexibility if you like the play style.

Having said that, I was curious. Well, that and I haven't had an interesting coding challenge for a while (don't tell anyone at work ) so I decided to write a little app that simulated combat with various options. I didn't take into account any feats, and since I don't trust my math skills I rolled virtual dice running through 10,000 simulated adventure days to get my results. I think the code is correct and takes into account everything from multiple attacks, action surges, using superiority dice to do damage every time the BattleMaster hit if they have any left and so on.

My conclusion? Well, this took a bit longer to write than expected and was mostly a waste of my time.

The damage output is very, very similar and which one does more damage depends on fighting style, average number of combats between rests and the number of rounds in those combats. I compared single weapon (no fighting style adding damage), two weapon and great weapon fighting styles. Target AC was 15.

If you have a lot of long combats between rests (4 combats per rest, 10 rounds per combat) Champion is generally the better choice, particularly if you choose two weapon fighting.

More rests and shorter combats (3 combats per rest, 5 rounds per combat) and the BattleMaster comes out slightly ahead.

However - and this is a big caveat - the difference is minimal. In almost all cases the difference is less than a single point of damage per round on average.

So play whichever class you want, it really doesn't matter much. Oh, and please stop saying the Champion is "broken" because it does so much less damage unless you can prove my numbers wrong.


I've attached my spreadsheet (if you really want to see my C# code I can attach that too) if you're curious.

EDIT: I made an update to the file, there was an error in my code where I was not getting quite enough damage. It doesn't make an overall difference.

 

[Zardnaar]

Erm we already know that. The issue is DPR is more or less all the champion gets and the pother fighter class is competitive in that just using the superiority dice to deal damage which is a bad use of them.

That is at the most basic. The other manoeuvres do better things than DPR and the BM tends to be better at DPR than the champion who is supposed to be good at fighting. For example if there is a Rogue in the party the Battlemaster gets a massive boost to damage.

Combat also goes by fast in 5E due to weak monsters, a 5 round fight is kind of long 1-3 rounds is more typical 10 rounds is almost unheard of.

 

[Oofta]

Erm we already know that. The issue is DPR is more or less all the champion gets and the pother fighter class is competitive in that just using the superiority dice to deal damage which is a bad use of them.

That is at the most basic. The other manoeuvres do better things than DPR and the BM tends to be better at DPR than the champion who is supposed to be good at fighting. For example if there is a Rogue in the party the Battlemaster gets a massive boost to damage.

Combat also goes by fast in 5E due to weak monsters, a 5 round fight is kind of long 1-3 rounds is more typical 10 rounds is almost unheard of.

That's not the argument I've seen in other threads. As far as how many fights, and how long? Well that's going to depend on your group. The group I'm DMing regularly has 5-10 round fights. Maybe I'm just a mean DM.

A 3 round fight? That rarely happens in any game I play in. YMMV.

In addition if you're using your maneuvers to do "other things" then you aren't using them to do damage (for the most part). So if half of your maneuvers are not adding damage, then it seems like the Champion is going to be better at damage across the board.

So at that point it's a question of play style. If you want to max damage, either use all your maneuvers to do damage or play a champion (and get about the same amount of damage). If you like maneuvers play a BattleMaster.

Or have the best of both worlds and have a BattleMaster to set up advantage and the Champion to take advantage of it.

 

[bid]

Oh, and please stop saying the Champion is "broken" because it does so much less damage unless you can prove my numbers wrong.

It's hard to validate something is right when you have no information on how the results were reached.

Did you apply every SD as riposte, or did you merely add it as damage? Because it makes a big difference.

Did you manually calculate some values to check your program?

For instance, your first champion cell (level 3, 40 rounds of 1d8+3)
- 1d8+3 * .55 + 1d8 * .1 = 4.575 (AC15 vs +5, need 10+ to hit)
- 1d8+3 * .50 + 1d8 * .1 = 4.2 (AC16 vs +5, need 11+ to hit)
- 1d8+3 * .45 + 1d8 * .1 = 3.825 (AC17 vs +5, need 12+ to hit)
None of those match the 3.98 DPR you've put there.


So, your numbers are wrong at the moment.


I would suggest you remove action surge from the equation. It's error-prone and you don't really care it if really was 38 or 39 actual rounds of combat before action surge, or if both TWF managed to get an extra bonus action that wasn't there.

I would use riposte. You are more than likely to be missed once every 4 rounds, which is enough to use your SDs there. Precision would add more DPR but riposte is less error prone.

 

[Zardnaar]

That's not the argument I've seen in other threads. As far as how many fights, and how long? Well that's going to depend on your group. The group I'm DMing regularly has 5-10 round fights. Maybe I'm just a mean DM.

A 3 round fight? That rarely happens in any game I play in. YMMV.

In addition if you're using your maneuvers to do "other things" then you aren't using them to do damage (for the most part). So if half of your maneuvers are not adding damage, then it seems like the Champion is going to be better at damage across the board.

So at that point it's a question of play style. If you want to max damage, either use all your maneuvers to do damage or play a champion (and get about the same amount of damage). If you like maneuvers play a BattleMaster.

Or have the best of both worlds and have a BattleMaster to set up advantage and the Champion to take advantage of it.

Have you played the official adventures?

Lost Mines of Phandelver for example most of those fights IIRC lasted a few rounds.

 

[Ashkelon]

A number of problems here.

1. You need to rest for a variety of level ranges. I suggest the tier breakdowns of 5, 11, and 17.

2. AC is way off. You need to test a range of the most common AC values at a particular level. AC should be 13-15 at level 5 testing 16-18 for level 11 testing, and 19-21 for level 17 testing.

3. Fighting Styles and feats are important. For the Great Wespon fighter, he should be using a greatsword. With the fighting style the weapon damage of the greatsword is 8.333. But the great weapon fighting style also allows you to reroll 1s and 2s for superiority dice. This will give a significant damage edge to the battlemaster.

4. The best use of superiority dice isn't always flat damage, but when it is, it's typically better to use precision with greatweapon master. Being able to turn a 24.3333 damage miss into a hit is a much better use of a superiority die than to add 6.2 damage to a hit. Then there are maneuvers like riposte or commanders strike which add significantly more damage than you would get by spending a single die to enhance a normal attack.

5. Typical combat in 5e lasts between 3 and 5 rounds. Also you are supposed to have just two or three combats between short tests. This gives a typical adventuring day of 6-8 combats per day, 2 short rests, and roughly 25 rounds of combat in total.

6. The effects of maneuvers can be important. An archer being able to shoot a dragon out of the sky by making it fall prone for example. Or an archer using goading attack to make the BBEG have disadvantage on all attacks against the rest of the party while keeping out of the BBEGs reach himself. The ability to make tactically meaningful choices will have a much higher impact on the outcome of a battle than random spike damage.

7. Since the champion has no control of his damage, he cannot burst down choice targets. He also risks overkill. In essence, the champions damage has much less precision so while the average might appear fine, it will often be ineffectiently used. You are just as likely to crit an enemy when he has 5 HP as you are when his HP is full. The problem is scoring a crit on a 5 HP target is mostly useless.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Erm we already know that..

Then why in every one of these threads are there people calling the champion "incompetent"? So you may know that, but apparently not everyone does, so you might want to hold off on the "we" part

 

[Sacrosanct]

A number of problems here.

1. You need to rest for a variety of level ranges. I suggest the tier breakdowns of 5, 11, and 17.

2. AC is way off. You need to test a range of the most common AC values at a particular level. AC should be 13-15 at level 5 testing 16-18 for level 11 testing, and 19-21 for level 17 testing.

Do you have data that supports these figure? Or just guessing?

3. Fighting Styles and feats are important. For the Great Wespon fighter, he should be using a greatsword. With the fighting style the weapon damage of the greatsword is 8.333. But the great weapon fighting style also allows you to reroll 1s and 2s for superiority dice. This will give a significant damage edge to the battlemaster.

Is there a Sage Advice ruling on this? Because GW style says 1 and 2s on a damage dice. The BM uses superiority dice. They are not called damage dice, even if they add damage. So unless there's a ruling I don't know about (possible), I would not apply GW to the superiority dice because they are specifically called something else and not damage dice

4. The best use of superiority dice isn't always flat damage, but when it is, it's typically better to use precision with greatweapon master. Being able to turn a 24.3333 damage miss into a hit is a much better use of a superiority die than to add 6.2 damage to a hit. Then there are maneuvers like riposte or commanders strike which add significantly more damage than you would get by spending a single die to enhance a normal attack.

5. Typical combat in 5e lasts between 3 and 5 rounds. Also you are supposed to have just two or three combats between short tests. This gives a typical adventuring day of 6-8 combats per day, 2 short rests, and roughly 25 rounds of combat in total.

Do you have data that supports these figure? Or just guessing?

6. The effects of maneuvers can be important. An archer being able to shoot a dragon out of the sky by making it fall prone for example. Or an archer using goading attack to make the BBEG have disadvantage on all attacks against the rest of the party while keeping out of the BBEGs reach himself. The ability to make tactically meaningful choices will have a much higher impact on the outcome of a battle than random spike damage.

7. Since the champion has no control of his damage, he cannot burst down choice targets. He also risks overkill. In essence, the champions damage has much less precision so while the average might appear fine, it will often be ineffectiently used. You are just as likely to crit an enemy when he has 5 HP as you are when his HP is full. The problem is scoring a crit on a 5 HP target is mostly useless.

Same applies to the BM. PCs don't know how many HP the monsters have left, so they very well may apply a SD in damage when it wasn't needed. Also, if you use feats, then you have to factor in GWM, which allows an extra attack if you've dropped an opponent to 0 hP on a crit, which the champion will be able to take advantage of more than a BM. How exactly do you quantify that benefit?

The bottom line is that there are just so many factors based on player choices, table game styles, etc, that all of these analysis are inherently flawed because each one is done by people imparting their own biases into what factors they consider and which they don't.

Both are good subclasses. Play the one you like better. End of story.

 

[Ashkelon]

Do you have data that supports these figure? Or just guessing?

Detailed analysis of Volos guide to monsters and the MM plotting AC vs CR.

Is there a Sage Advice ruling on this? Because GW style says 1 and 2s on a damage dice. The BM uses superiority dice. They are not called damage dice, even if they add damage. So unless there's a ruling I don't know about (possible), I would not apply GW to the superiority dice because they are specifically called something else and not damage dice

the style doesn't specify weapon damage dice. Therefor they apply to all damage dice for the attack. This includes things like superiority dice or Paladins divine smite. For similar wording just look at the rules for critical hits, it says to roll the attack's damage dice twice.

Do you have data that supports these figure? Or just guessing?

Math and the DMG encounter building guidelines respectively.

Same applies to the BM. PCs don't know how many HP the monsters have left, so they very well may apply a SD in damage when it wasn't needed. Also, if you use feats, then you have to factor in GWM, which allows an extra attack if you've dropped an opponent to 0 hP on a crit, which the champion will be able to take advantage of more than a BM. How exactly do you quantify that benefit?

The BM can choose to use his resources early when he knows overkill will not be a problem. The champion cannot choose when he crits. It's quite simple really. The champion is more adversely affected by overkill than the battlemaster because the champion lacks any control of his extra damage feature. The battlemaster has complete control of his extra damage feature. As such the battlemaster's additional damage will almost always be used more efficiently.

As to GWM adding more damage to the champion than the BM because of a higher chance to crit and thus a higher chance to get a bonus action attack, yes that is true. It's very easy to calculate as well. In fact I include that in any analysis I do when comparing the BM and the champion. It only gives the champion a few extra DPR, still not nearly enough to make up the difference in DPR.

 

[Jester David]

Erm we already know that. The issue is DPR is more or less all the champion gets and the pother fighter class is competitive in that just using the superiority dice to deal damage which is a bad use of them.

That seems like the design is working as intended then. The champion is meant to be the simple fighter without lots of utility or bells & whistles. The battle master is in the middle, and the eldritch knight is the most complex and option heavy.

If the champion is a failure because it doesn't do special things, then the BM is also a failure compared to the EK...

Okay, admittedly it means that they're doing the same damage and the BM is dealing status effects. Which is problematic. Easy enough fix: reduce the superiority dice to d6s.
It's easier than any "fix" to the champion would be.

It's hard to validate something is right when you have no information on how the results were reached.

The data file is attached to the post. You can pull it up in Excel and check.

1. You need to rest for a variety of level ranges. I suggest the tier breakdowns of 5, 11, and 17.

I agree with this. But it gets more complicated.
The champion benefits more from action surge, especially the two uses at level 17. The battlemaster can just use their dice up faster.
And the 18th level powers are really funky, since the champion can adventurer longer and spend more turns active while the battle master deals more damage with their dice.

2. AC is way off. You need to test a range of the most common AC values at a particular level. AC should be 13-15 at level 5 testing 16-18 for level 11 testing, and 19-21 for level 17 testing.

I'm not sure how accuracy plays into things. The champions bonus to damage comes from rolls of 19+, while the BM's comes from hits.
Really, higher ACs actually benefit the champion: the less the BM hits, the fewer times they will use their dice.