D&D 5E BattleMaster vs Champion, an analysis

[Sacrosanct]

OK, instead of guessing, let's get an actual visual reference. Looking at all monsters in the MM, it seems there's a steady increase in average AC by CR. I see a lot of people use this as a base reference point when doing their analysis, but it's not a very good way to analyze it because as the second chart shows, the actual AC is all over the board for every monster CR. You simply cannot predict accurately what a monster's AC will be based on it's CR. Secondly, not every monster is faced the same amount of times. Hence the second pair of graphs. This is just the humanoids, which are probably the most commonly encountered monster in the MM. When you look at that, the average AC values reveal a much different picture, and that's not even considering the very easy and realistic change the DM can do by giving those humanoids better armor and/or shields (which you can't really do to other monsters that can't grab or wear things).

 

[Oofta]

Just an FYI, I did the analysis of champion vs battlemaster with AC 15 and 20. There was virtually no difference.

Oh, and factoring in Precise Strike if the target AC was missed by an amount that was less than the average of the current Superiority die made minimal difference (less than a point) in a variety of scenarios.

So my conclusion remains basically the same. Both versions have advantages and disadvantages but damage output is probably more dependent on build, feats and campaign than anything else.

 

[wicked cool]

my next character will be a fighter and i'm strongly leaning towards the 2 above choices. the campaign world he/she will live in is human/elf/dwarf/Halfling. most campaigns seem to involve long treks from civilization. combat is 1-3 battles a night and often we are fully rested when we play several weeks later. group usually consists of 3-6 people (including dm). usually fighter lite in group (others play rangers/clerics/mages)

which one is the better choice. going with human playstyle is sword and board with the occasional range attack (usually favor strength). starting at 1st level-usually maxes around before level 15. Any must have feats for low level (DR feat with armor?)

 

[Oofta]

my next character will be a fighter and i'm strongly leaning towards the 2 above choices. the campaign world he/she will live in is human/elf/dwarf/Halfling. most campaigns seem to involve long treks from civilization. combat is 1-3 battles a night and often we are fully rested when we play several weeks later. group usually consists of 3-6 people (including dm). usually fighter lite in group (others play rangers/clerics/mages)

which one is the better choice. going with human playstyle is sword and board with the occasional range attack (usually favor strength). starting at 1st level-usually maxes around before level 15. Any must have feats for low level (DR feat with armor?)

This has more to do with your preferences than anything. Basically a battlemaster is going to have more flexibility, a champion is easier to play and if you want to do anything other than swing your sword such as knock someone prone it will use standard athletics check attack.

One advantage of champion is that you get two fighting styles, so you could start out with a bonus to AC, and then get extra damage with the duelist fighting style.

The numbers will probably slightly favor battlemaster in a game where you have short combats and frequent rests, but it's only by a point or two per round.

I don't have my books handy, so I can't give you any more detail. Personally I don't think you can go wrong with either one.

 

[happyhermit]

my next character will be a fighter and i'm strongly leaning towards the 2 above choices. ...)

Battle masters have a cool extra resource to manage for utility and damage, if that appeals to you for this character then it will be a great choice. The damage will be very good.

Champion doesn't have that resource, they have very little on their sheet but get some neat always on abilities like RA. If (for this character) you would rather not have a resource to manage, or just don't really care, and don't mind not having additional actions spelled out on your character sheet then the Champion would be a great choice. The damage will be very good.

 

[Tony Vargas]

This has more to do with your preferences than anything. Basically a battlemaster is going to have more flexibility, a champion is easier to play.

The Champion is easier to take in at a glance, the 'training wheels option' in theory. Playing it effectively, especially outside the fighters DPR bailiwick, might not be so easy - if you consider creativity and engaging with the DM not-so-easy. :shrug:

 

[bid]

Just an FYI, I did the analysis of champion vs battlemaster with AC 15 and 20. There was virtually no difference.

Oh, and factoring in Precise Strike if the target AC was missed by an amount that was less than the average of the current Superiority die made minimal difference (less than a point) in a variety of scenarios.

So my conclusion remains basically the same. Both versions have advantages and disadvantages but damage output is probably more dependent on build, feats and campaign than anything else.

As I've shown on page 1, your numbers are off. For instance, your first champion cell (level 3, 40 rounds of 1d8+3) has 3.98 DPR. But a quick calculation returns a much higher number.
- 1d8+3 * .55 + 1d8 * .1 = 4.575 (AC15 vs +5, need 10+ to hit)
{hit on 10+ = 55%, crit on 19+ = 10%}

BM should do:
- 1d8+3 * .55 + 1d8 * .05 = 4.35 (AC15 vs +5, need 10+ to hit)
plus 4 extra attack rolls from riposte
- 2d8+3 * .55 + 1d8 * .05 = 6.825
Spread over the 40 rounds, that should be
- 4.35 + 6.825 * 4 / 40 = 5.0325

There something wrong with your program and until you get the correct champion DPR the analysis remains invalid.


tl;dr
back of the envelope gets 4.575 DPR for champion, much more than the 3.98 listed.

 

[auburn2]

In addition if you're using your maneuvers to do "other things" then you aren't using them to do damage (for the most part).

This is not true. Almost all of the maneuvers do other things AND do additional damage. The only ones that don't are precision, rally and parry and precision can turn a miss into a hit which is in itself an increase in damage.

 

[Oofta]

This is not true. Almost all of the maneuvers do other things AND do additional damage. The only ones that don't are precision, rally and parry and precision can turn a miss into a hit which is in itself an increase in damage.

Some do, some don't. Irregardless the argument in the past is that BattleMaster outshines the Champions damage, which I don't see.

 

[Oofta]

As I've shown on page 1, your numbers are off. For instance, your first champion cell (level 3, 40 rounds of 1d8+3) has 3.98 DPR. But a quick calculation returns a much higher number.
- 1d8+3 * .55 + 1d8 * .1 = 4.575 (AC15 vs +5, need 10+ to hit)
{hit on 10+ = 55%, crit on 19+ = 10%}

BM should do:
- 1d8+3 * .55 + 1d8 * .05 = 4.35 (AC15 vs +5, need 10+ to hit)
plus 4 extra attack rolls from riposte
- 2d8+3 * .55 + 1d8 * .05 = 6.825
Spread over the 40 rounds, that should be
- 4.35 + 6.825 * 4 / 40 = 5.0325

There something wrong with your program and until you get the correct champion DPR the analysis remains invalid.


tl;dr
back of the envelope gets 4.575 DPR for champion, much more than the 3.98 listed.

You were correct - there was an issue with the random number for the damage roll. The random number generator is still a little funky, and the numbers are off by a few tenths even after 100,000 rolls.

In any case the numbers come out about the same and I'm uploading a new version in 3...2...