Battlerager Vigor limiting it - ideas?

[Kzach]

The oddity of your magic armor feeding in to it... is kind of jarring though. Perhaps it is like the warriors who over time learns to make their weapons a part of them.

I haven't crunched the numbers. I was waiting for y'all to do that for me

 

[Garthanos]

If an enemy damages you with a melee or close attack, you may gain <the normal amount> of temporary hp
(as an immediate reaction)
(at the start of your next turn)
(at the end of your next turn)

If you want to change it to 1/round, pick one of the above - deals with immunity to many minions, though one is still screwed (but, really, that's okay).

Using the lesser of real hit point loss or <the normal amount> without any other changes already allows even 1 minion to eventually get through if he lasts long enough and multiple ones to get through proportionately faster (because of more attacks), shrug.

 

[keterys]

Yep, just tossing out simpler solutions for folks.

 

[Garthanos]

I haven't crunched the numbers. I was waiting for y'all to do that for me

I am a concept cruncher and number absorber... It isnt that Con goes up fast.. its that it tends to start too high with people wanting to optimise for this build in some ways that is ok. (Remember because it is tied to CON it means they dont pump points in to a DEX based armor class. ) Your adjusted BRV'ers would be high AC by a different route they would stick it in to DEX, because they dont need to put it in to con I think.

heh, what if you just penalize for armor after all is said and done that is the trade in question. Cloth = normal, leather = -1, hide -2, chain -3, scale -4, plate -5.

Note that means if they dont do heavy armor and instead do a light armor... they have another place they will need to soak points for getting armor class... so likely there con will have to be lower though I am picturing a horribly over defensive low strength character with (high dex and high con).

Negatives include : Its entirely a gimping effect (although appropriate) .. another they have to optimize to have a heavy armor brv and we might want to rethink the numbers with the boosting feats.

 

[Kzach]

I am a concept cruncher and number absorber... It isnt that Con goes up fast.. its that it tends to start too high with people wanting to optimise for this build in some ways that is ok. (Remember because it is tied to CON it means they dont pump points in to a DEX based armor class. ) Your adjusted BRV'ers would be high AC by a different route they would stick it in to DEX, because they dont need to put it in to con I think.

This just made me realise that we're going about this the wrong way; we're finding solutions and then trying to make them balanced.

Instead, we should be working out what is a balanced and reasonable amount of THP to gain throughout the levels that keeps the class interesting and yet doesn't overshadow the other build choices.

It would seem that we've identified all the key issues, so first we should probably try to collate them as a reference. I'll try and put a few out there to start:

• Strength should be the primary stat and they shouldn't have a motivation for it not to be.
  
• Con should be the secondary stat and they shouldn't have a motivation for it not to be.
  
• Minions need to be a threat, not a speed-bump.
  
• Needs to maintain the feel of an adrenaline-charged defender.
  
• Should scale appropriately throughout the levels. Highs and lows are ok, but it should never be so powerful that it's a no-brainer choice or weak that it's not a contender.
  
• Solve the issue of out of combat THP stacking.

EDIT: Hmm, this made me think of another possible solution: scaling the amount of THP to the threat. Minions are a low-level of threat so they don't get much benefit against them, standard creatures are a medium level threat so they get a medium level of THP, etc.

 

[Garthanos]

This just made me realise that we're going about this the wrong way; we're finding solutions and then trying to make them balanced.

Instead, we should be working out what is a balanced and reasonable amount of THP to gain throughout the levels that keeps the class interesting and yet doesn't overshadow the other build choices.

It would seem that we've identified all the key issues, so first we should probably try to collate them as a reference. I'll try and put a few out there to start:

• Strength should be the primary stat and they shouldn't have a motivation for it not to be.

That might mean we need to use some strength for effects associated with the battlerager... ie perhaps bursts of damage dealing that require spending temporary hit points. (a reason not to sit around with thp) and note this could replace the continuous bonus damage from having BRV.

• Con should be the secondary stat and they shouldn't have a motivation for it not to be.

creating a maximum thp you can stack based on CON, instead of making them non-stackable or making the rate based on thp. The rate of THP gain might be too easily out of control.

• Minions need to be a threat, not a speed-bump.

They dont need to be much of a threat... immunity is just unacceptable.and having thp gained only based on the real hitpoints lost does enable them to provide some threat.

• Needs to maintain the feel of an adrenaline-charged defender.
• Should scale appropriately throughout the levels. Highs and lows are ok, but it should never be so powerful that it's a no-brainer choice or weak that it's not a contender.
• Solve the issue of out of combat THP stacking.

EDIT: Hmm, this made me think of another possible solution: scaling the amount of THP to the threat. Minions are a low-level of threat so they don't get much benefit against them, standard creatures are a medium level threat so they get a medium level of THP, etc.

Well the only measure of threat I can think of that has any reasonable garantee would be real hit points lost....

I think I have ulterior motives for wanting BRV balanced solidly.

I want BRV under control in part because I want to do even more with it. . Same with adjusting minions... I like them a lot the way they are, but feel like my wanting more means I need to be sure where I am starting from is balanced.

Another BRV enhancement feat idea which I have no idea of how to balance unless brv itself is fairly under control....I called

Empowered Empathy.
You gain BRV temporary hitpoints when a nearby ally loses real hitpoints.
The feat is actually thought of as a racial feat, connnected with BRV, might be appropriate to Deva - angelic connection to other beings concept. Or it might be appropriate for a race who is so hearty they rarely fear their own death (errrr maybe warforged or shifters with regen?).

 

[Pyrex]

Say, fighter hits 80% of the time and gains 5 temp HP each time. The monster hits 10% of the time and does 10 damage each time. So the fighter gains 4 expected temp HP per round and only loses 1.

However, this type of situation seems rare. You'd have to be using awfully weak monsters.

That should be *really* rare. Given that they're wearing Chain, a BRV fighter should be being hit with roughly the same % rate that he hits his targets. Also, if there are 2-3 enemies swinging at him, he won't have a chance to build a bunch of THP via Crushing Surge.

Also, if he's swinging with Crushing Surge every turn to get the TempHP, that means he's *not* getting the extra damage he'd be getting with either Cleave or Reaping Strike.

 

[keterys]

The errata is very close to my suggestion - invigorating on the miss instead of double is probably a smarter idea, and I still am not a fan of all this advocating hammers and axes things as part of the class, but eh.

So, yeah, problem solved. Go home?

 

[Eric Finley]

One quick note - I'm not hugely concerned about the exact value of a resistance. But I'm not clear on why you'd have to gimp it, for one reason and one reason alone... it allows you to completely dispense with the concept of stacking THPs. Ever. That sentence is simply omitted from my version of the feature (and, if I'm reading him right, from Elric's as well).

So our BRV fighter occasionally uses Crushing Surge for the THPs, but mostly she doesn't bother... because Resist 4 is sufficient, especially by comparison to the others in the party, all of whom are pretty squishy. Basically, she actually has less incentive to use Invigorating powers than others would, not more, because they become somewhat redundant. It's a rare round where she needs the extra damage soak more than she needs the disgusting accuracy/damage boost on Brash Strike.

Add that in your thinking and smoke it, fellas.

 

[Garthanos]

The errata is very close to my suggestion - invigorating on the miss instead of double is probably a smarter idea, and I still am not a fan of all this advocating hammers and axes things as part of the class, but eh.

So, yeah, problem solved. Go home?

Well the axe hammer thing I can live without too.. heavy weapons seems sufficient. Have an errata link?