D&D 5E Being strong and skilled is a magic of its own or, how I learned to stop worrying and love anime fightin' magic

[GMforPowergamers]

See, I'm OK with these. Because you ate still just fundamentally hitting someone, with a bonus attached.

It's when we get into the actual magical things, I consider a Gish/Magus as the first choice.

There was a warlord ability you could take that (I think it was daily) was epic... an ally within Xft/sq gets hit by an attack... immediate interrupt, you move to next to them, then swap places with them, you take the hit, then get to make an attack (I don't remember damage but I am sure it had to be at least 3w) then if the ally is in range they can make an attack...

there was a much lower (maybe 3rd level) encounter power called "vengeance is mine" and it was an immediate reaction to being hit by an attack. you or an ally could make an attack back with a bonus to damage.

there was a fighter power (I want to say 5th or 7th) called 'sunder armor' where you hit you deal 2w then the target loses 2 off there AC until the end of the encounter.

there was a fighter at will 'tide of iron' where you push a target 5ft, then move 5ft to be adjacent and get an attack.

those are all combat though... but atleast it was options... like you could choose to do things.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Even in videogames, within its fiction, the character generally has a reason they can perform such feats - blood of a god, harnessing some supernatural energy source, or the like. In Metal Gear Rising: Revengence (wow, that's a goofy name), the character is a cyborg supported with nanotechnology and other super science (so, basically MAGIC). They are not a normal, run-of-the-mill person who gets into a lot of fights and somehow finds he can fling building-sized creatures around.

my problem is that we are full of (and I am sure anyone can name a dozen) martial heroes that only punch/swing/shoot/kick ect that have some mystic or magic (or parascience) origin but are really just 'I do tough things beyond belief'

weather we say "Oh he went through super soldier serum" or "Oh he got bit by a radio active spider" or "His father/grandfather was a god" or "as a baby he was dipped into the river stix" or "He received 7 blessings of 7 gods" most of the in story time is spent on them doing physical impossible things... your (dumb name or not) Metal Gear nano tech is a great example...

these are heroes, concepts people would like to play. Having a mystic,legendary,superhero heroic class that IS NOT just a soldier but can be (based on choices as you level) as extraordinary or even superhuman as you want without casting spells or refluffing spells.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

You need an explanation? Uh...Midi-chlorians. : )

in teh 4e days someone (trying to make fun of how dumb 4e was) said he just imagined the martial powersource was a big green battery in the center of the universe that these fighters tap into... I'm cool with that fluff. I don't mind Midi chlorians... I just want to make a awesome complex resource juggling not spell caster

 

[Scribe]

There was a warlord ability you could take that (I think it was daily) was epic... an ally within Xft/sq gets hit by an attack... immediate interrupt, you move to next to them, then swap places with them, you take the hit, then get to make an attack (I don't remember damage but I am sure it had to be at least 3w) then if the ally is in range they can make an attack...

there was a much lower (maybe 3rd level) encounter power called "vengeance is mine" and it was an immediate reaction to being hit by an attack. you or an ally could make an attack back with a bonus to damage.

there was a fighter power (I want to say 5th or 7th) called 'sunder armor' where you hit you deal 2w then the target loses 2 off there AC until the end of the encounter.

there was a fighter at will 'tide of iron' where you push a target 5ft, then move 5ft to be adjacent and get an attack.

those are all combat though... but atleast it was options... like you could choose to do things.

Yes, and I don't think those are particularly magical, or mythical.

I'm not against Fighters having a "Special Attack List".

 

[Maxperson]

D&D adventurers aren't normal, run-of-the-mill people. They are exceptional.

How you're exceptional is up to you, but frankly the point is moot because as I've said repeatedly you aren't forced to engage with content.

If you want to be a glorified commoner, then just ignore all the options that make you not-a-glorified-commoner.

Where in the rules does it say that they are not normal members of their race? I'm not seeing it. Below is from the PHB page 11 under Choose a Race.

"Every character belongs to a race, one of the many intelligent humanoid species in the D&D world. The most common player character races are dwarves, elves, halflings, and humans. Some races also have subraces, such as mountain dwarf or wood elf. Chapter 2 provides more information about these races, as well as the less widespread races of dragonborn, gnomes, half-elves, half-ores, and tieflings.

The race you choose contributes to your character's identity in an important way, by establishing a general appearance and the natural talents gained from culture and ancestry. Your character's race grants particular racial traits, such as special senses, proficiency with certain weapons or tools, proficiency in one or more skills, or the ability to use minor spells. These traits sometimes dovetail with the capabilities of certain classes (see step 2). For example, the racial traits of lightfoot halflings make them exceptional rogues, and high elves tend to be powerful wizards. Sometimes playing against type can be fun, too. Half-ore paladins and mountain dwarf wizards, for example, can be unusual but memorable characters."

PC's are only exceptional in that they have character classes and higher than normal stats for their race, but many NPCs also have similar stats and some have PC classes. In short, unless they are noble, they are a glorified commoner. If they're noble, they are a glorified noble. There's nothing inherent to being a PC or adventurer that allows them to do the things you describe without some sort of supernatural element to them.

 

[payn]

my problem is that we are full of (and I am sure anyone can name a dozen) martial heroes that only punch/swing/shoot/kick ect that have some mystic or magic (or parascience) origin but are really just 'I do tough things beyond belief'

weather we say "Oh he went through super soldier serum" or "Oh he got bit by a radio active spider" or "His father/grandfather was a god" or "as a baby he was dipped into the river stix" or "He received 7 blessings of 7 gods" most of the in story time is spent on them doing physical impossible things... your (dumb name or not) Metal Gear nano tech is a great example...

these are heroes, concepts people would like to play. Having a mystic,legendary,superhero heroic class that IS NOT just a soldier but can be (based on choices as you level) as extraordinary or even superhuman as you want without casting spells or refluffing spells.

I think there is a lot of headbutting on this stuff because I never think of these examples when I play D&D. If I want to be metal gear I'd play Anima, and if I wanted Spiderman I'd play Marvel or better yet PbtA. Those games are desinged with that genre model in mind. Though, traditionally these suggestions have not gone over well. Folks seem to want D&D to do everything, and its never been designed to do everything. I get that its the biggest, and seemingly only game in town, but I so wish that would change. It would make everyone happier (EVERYONE) if there wasn't just one game to rule them all. With that said, commence with the arguments!

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I think there is a lot of headbutting on this stuff because I never think of these examples when I play D&D. If I want to be metal gear I'd play Anima, and if I wanted Spiderman I'd play Marvel or better yet PbtA. Those games are desinged with that genre model in mind.

I get that some people don't want "captain America like" or "Batman like" or even "John wick like" so I added more fantasy counter parts "daddy was a god" or "dipped in the river stixx" or "was cursed with awesome" that all are more fantasy but still just an origin...

every hero has an origin.

Though, traditionally these suggestions have not gone over well. Folks seem to want D&D to do everything, and its never been designed to do everything. I get that its the biggest, and seemingly only game in town, but I so wish that would change. It would make everyone happier (EVERYONE) if there wasn't just one game to rule them all. With that said, commence with the arguments!

again I odn't need 1 game to rule them all (although right now I have 0 rifts.savageworld.worldofdarknees.Torg. games running) I just want warrior concepts to be able ot be played with the power and complexity we allow casters

 

[Haplo781]

PC's are only exceptional in that they have character classes and higher than normal stats for their race

So you agree that they are in fact exceptional. Thanks.

 

[payn]

I get that some people don't want "captain America like" or "Batman like" or even "John wick like" so I added more fantasy counter parts "daddy was a god" or "dipped in the river stixx" or "was cursed with awesome" that all are more fantasy but still just an origin...

every hero has an origin.

Another stand out between us (and likely others) I dont see the PCs as exceptional because they got some super serum, spider bite, or even Gods blood or whatever you want to come up with. They are regular Joe's in a world that is fantastic and allows folks to be fantastic because of its nature. The PCs are exceptional because they face the danger, seek the adventure, and learn to become powerful. They are heroic in deed in a fantasy world, not a special power granted to them and nobody else. Thats supers stuff. You can sub Hercules for Spiderman, but its the same thing.

again I odn't need 1 game to rule them all (although right now I have 0 rifts.savageworld.worldofdarknees.Torg. games running) I just want warrior concepts to be able ot be played with the power and complexity we allow casters

Now, this I think we can agree on. All the anime and supers stuff just confuses the issue. I really wish people wouldnt use them as examples. Angel Summoner and BMX bandit is the better example. How to parse caster and martial power while keeping in mind that Angel Summoner doesn't start out really being able to summon angels at all. How to put both casters and martials on the same trajectory. Also, nobody ever describes casters as having been dipped in Gods blood, or bitten by spiders, etc.. They get to just be fantasy, which is what Id like for martials too.

The important thing, according to me of course, is that the game can support the sword and sorcery genre, while building up to high fantasy, and ending in gonzo fantasy. This has been a challenge because the first levels always get the most attention, playtesting, table time. Which is why a lot of folks want the S&S element stricken from the game. I cant really blame them because they never get what they want, and when they do, its poorly designed and tested. If I was in the big chair at WOTC this is the nut I'd be trying to crack.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Another stand out between us (and likely others) I dont see the PCs as exceptional because they got some super serum, spider bite, or even Gods blood or whatever you want to come up with. They are regular Joe's in a world that is fantastic and allows folks to be fantastic because of its nature. The PCs are exceptional because they face the danger, seek the adventure, and learn to become powerful. They are heroic in deed in a fantasy world, not a special power granted to them and nobody else. Thats supers stuff. You can sub Hercules for Spiderman, but its the same thing.

I actually am (mostly) in agreement... the thing is I dislike the 'limits'

I don't want to be bitten by a radiactive spider... I don't want to be the last survivor of a dying world, and I don't want to be the son of a god (most times) I just want to do what you said :

regular Joe's in a world that is fantastic and allows folks to be fantastic because of its nature. The PCs are exceptional because they face the danger, seek the adventure, and learn to become powerful.

I just want the mid to high level 'excepitonal hero that faced the danger and seeked out adventure' to be able to do things LIKE those other heroes do... I want my wizard to start off weak and end world breaking (if we get up to 17th+ level) but I want my fighters to too.

Now, this I think we can agree on. All the anime and supers stuff just confuses the issue. I really wish people wouldnt use them as examples. Angel Summoner and BMX bandit is the better example.

I just use them as modern mythology we can all understand. I like angel summoner and BMX bandit... but I have been told (a few years ago now) that it was a BAD example of 5e so I stopped doing it...

but yeah I want angel summoner and BMX bandit concepts to both work.

How to parse caster and martial power while keeping in mind that Angel Summoner doesn't start out really being able to summon angels at all. How to put both casters and martials on the same trajectory. Also, nobody ever describes casters as having been dipped in Gods blood, or bitten by spiders, etc.. They get to just be fantasy, which is what Id like for martials too.

me too... but when I say "I want to do X" I get told it isn't what fantasy heroes do... so I answer "Story Y with hero Z from mythology" and I always get "That doesn't count he was ________" and I tried for years to explain "every hero has an origin" but it doesn't matter.

The important thing, according to me of course, is that the game can support the sword and sorcery genre, while building up to high fantasy, and ending in gonzo fantasy.

agreed. this is why I want MORE classes... give us more options

This has been a challenge because the first levels always get the most attention, playtesting, table time. Which is why a lot of folks want the S&S element stricken from the game.

I understand that feeling, but I don't agree with it. I want to be able to do S&S

I cant really blame them because they never get what they want, and when they do, its poorly designed and tested. If I was in the big chair at WOTC this is the nut I'd be trying to crack.