D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

[pemerton]

Hey a razor-edge yoyo is a DEADLY FRIGGIN' WEAPON!!!!

I'm a trad D&Der - clerics don't wield edged weapons, they wield maces!

 

[James Gasik]

I'm a trad D&Der - clerics don't wield edged weapons, they wield maces!

Yeah, like the morningstar!

*In fairness, it wasn't allowed to Clerics until 2e AFAIK, but it's been a staple ever since!

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

View attachment 313507

That was the image I was looking for.

 

[thenightgaunt]

...Again, it might be interesting to discuss the ways in which 4e was marketed incorrectly, or rolled out poorly, but given that we now know that WoTC was well aware during the design process (as was Paizo) that 4e would be divisive, I certainly think it is strange that we continue to see people say that the real issue with 4e is that people simply didn't understand it. People can understand something, and even appreciate parts of it, while still finding that it doesn't work for them.

Speaking of bad marketing. Ok, so this might be me hallucinating or misremembering events back then (it was 16 years ago and my ADHD butt has issues recalling clearly what happened 3 years ago).

I swear I remember reading something back when 4e was coming out, where some of the designers said that if you were using skills outside of combat you were "playing the game wrong". Now in hindsight, they might have been talking about skill challenges and were being misunderstood. However I remember this clearly as the quote "playing the game wrong" royally pissed off everyone in my campus RPG club, and I've run into people who swear they remember that quote as well. But...sigh..."Berenstain Bears" if you know what I mean. I've never found a record of it so...

So am I crazy or does anyone else remember this? And if so, what from??? Because I remember that this really pissed us off back then and was one of the reasons why we didn't give 4e a second glance when it first came out.

 

[James Gasik]

Speaking of bad marketing. Ok, so this might be me hallucinating or misremembering events back then (it was 16 years ago and my ADHD butt has issues recalling clearly what happened 3 years ago).

I swear I remember reading something back when 4e was coming out, where some of the designers said that if you were using skills outside of combat you were "playing the game wrong". Now in hindsight, they might have been talking about skill challenges and were being misunderstood. However I remember this clearly as the quote "playing the game wrong" royally pissed off everyone in my campus RPG club, and I've run into people who swear they remember that quote as well. But...sigh..."Berenstain Bears" if you know what I mean. I've never found a record of it so...

So am I crazy or does anyone else remember this? And if so, what from??? Because I remember that this really pissed us off back then and was one of the reasons why we didn't give 4e a second glance when it first came out.

I can't say I've ever heard that, but I would have been equally as annoyed if I had. If using skills outside of combat is playing the game wrong, why are there skills with no real combat use? I'm looking at you, Streetwise!

 

[thenightgaunt]

I can't say I've ever heard that, but I would have been equally as annoyed if I had. If using skills outside of combat is playing the game wrong, why are there skills with no real combat use? I'm looking at you, Streetwise!

Like I said. In hindsight, I think something from the interview had been misunderstood and that they were talking about skill challenges or similar.
But I recall it coming across really bad at the time. But maybe we misunderstood the quote. But that one line "playing the game wrong" is something that stuck with me ever since then.
(edit) And after reading the 2 "wizards presents" books, that quote doesn't fit with what the designers wrote in those books. So I'm leaning towards my group misunderstanding what we read back then.

 

[darjr]

I both loved some of the marketing for 4e and hated some of it. And some if it did not age well. Seeing people discover it now for the first time is not entirely great.

 

[Zeromaru X]

I really liked the Gnome and the Tiefling video. But yes, that video about grappling was cringeworthy...

 

[pemerton]

Given that the PHB and DMG both include extensive rules for the use of skills outside of combat - in fact, other than jumping (Athletics) and some other stunt-work (Acrobatics), out-of-combat is the main context for skill use - I don't think there is any suggestion that using skills outside of combat is "playing the game wrong".

 

[deganawida]

I really liked the Gnome and the Tiefling video. But yes, that video about grappling was cringeworthy...

My wife and I still use the, “I’m a monster! RAW!” line all the time.