D&D 5E Berserker Barbarian Fix?

[MindxKiller]

No, I didn't calculate the reaction attack, because the person I answered wrote that he didnd't calculate it too.
You can't use the bonus attack from GWM and the bonus attack from Polearm master. As I already stated in the quoted post. If anyone profits from the bonus attack of GWM it is the bereserker when he does not rage. If the totme barb has 2 feats and the berserker none, you are down 4 strength which may make the calculation even better for the berserker. ther ratio of the active part goes down to -7/+8 if you use it and -2/-2 if you don't.
Also, if we go the one feat makes the other path obsolete route, I would advise taking tough for the berserker. You may find that the barbarian will profit much and it should easily offset the bear totem resistance.
I really admit, that at hogher levels you will see a bigger gap between those. But then the extra reaction attacks and mindless rage should close it well enough. And as mentioned above there are good options for feats.

I'm sorry but that's just not mathematically sound, a berserker without GWM doesn't come anywhere close to a bearbarian with GWM and PM with 2 less str mod. Also, 2 hp per level is NO WHERE NEAR half damage from everything but psychic, not even by a mile.

DDEX 2-16 Was the recent one, needing 17's for the entire adventure to hit mobs, trash was 15's, and we made the DM have headaches when we won the boat fight where we weren't supposed to. Also has a silly bard get insta blapped by a crit after punching the enemy in the face. Good times. I remember needing 17's to hit things in foulness beneath mulmaster, most attacks I can recall I needed either 15 for trash, 17 to hit main enemies or some crazy 20+ crap for the really hard enemies.
Wish finding these pdf's wasn't such a pain


Most enemies tended to get crushed by our ranger dropping all the damages each round. Our paladin using PM never used the power attack either. Lots of maneuvering to stab things when the approached, but never used his power attack.


As I recall AC doesn't scale up all that much at higher levels, as 5e tries to keep AC from getting out of hand for everyone.

I can count on 2 hands the number of CR 5 or less creatures with 17 AC, and increasing that to CR less than 10 increases the number by maybe 3. That's out of the ENTIRE monster manual. Either your DM increased the difficulty or you were fighting hordes of githyanki/hobgoblins.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

@MindKiller It is mathematically sound. Other calculations were done in other posts. Calculate the break points where -7/+8 will be better than not taking the gamble. Example:
+1 to hit 1d10+15 damage for the polearm wielder vs +8 to hit 2d6+7 damage for the great sword. Against AC 16 the polearm wielder hits 1-0.7^2 = 0.51 of the time. He will deal about 10 damage on average. The great sword wielder hits 1-0.35^2= 0.88 of the time dealing 12 damage on average. A little better with crits factored in. That damage is much more reliable and dealt in smaller portions which will make it better vs lower level foes with low hp and maybe lower AC. So damage goes to waste less frequently.
The bonus attack can't be taken in the first round of rage and so on. The 20Str barbarian is not far behind without even trying.

 

[MindxKiller]

@MindKiller It is mathematically sound. Other calculations were done in other posts. Calculate the break points where -7/+8 will be better than not taking the gamble. Example:
+1 to hit 1d10+15 damage for the polearm wielder vs +8 to hit 2d6+7 damage for the great sword. Against AC 16 the polearm wielder hits 1-0.7^2 = 0.51 of the time. He will deal about 10 damage on average. The great sword wielder hits 1-0.35^2= 0.88 of the time dealing 12 damage on average. A little better with crits factored in. That damage is much more reliable and dealt in smaller portions which will make it better vs lower level foes with low hp and maybe lower AC. So damage goes to waste less frequently.
The bonus attack can't be taken in the first round of rage and so on. The 20Str barbarian is not far behind without even trying.

You're completely ignoring the whole point of polearm master, the bonus action attack, a barbarian with 20 str and no feats does about 26 dpr attacking a 16 ac target with reckless attack, a barbarian with GWM and PM and 16 str attacking the SAME 16 ac target with reckless attack does 31 DPR. 5 more damage, every single round, all day long. This is all being calculated at level 8, the absolute most favorable level for your side of the arguement, and you're still wrong, and that's completely ignoring the incredibly reliable reaction attack you can get with PM which if added, completely destroys the 20 str no feat barbarian.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Oh. Is the rage bonus +3 already? Ok. We are looking at 26 vs 31. Which is not too bad. All day long are the rounds raging without frenzy. Minus the first round of such combats where you lose quite some damage. If you calculate the rounds where you waste damage because of overkill the berserker gets better. If you then remember that the most dangerous enemies may have AC 18 or so and those are the fights where you most likely frenzy, you will notice that despite doing 15% damage on AVERAGE your performance won't lack behind the polearm barbarian.
So in the end, the polearm is a lot better versus low AC targets with high hp. The berserker should be good vs dragons or so. Fear aura, high AC. Enough reach to not let the polearm master not get the extra reaction attack. And last but not least, better athletic checks, saving throws and the versality to use any weapon. Most importantly a javelin that can be used before the polearm master closes to melee.
If that is worth 5 damage on average ok. I think that is about the point where specializing should be. If you don't have advantage in your most favourable situations you did something wrong.

 

[MindxKiller]

Oh. Is the rage bonus +3 already? Ok. We are looking at 26 vs 31. Which is not too bad. All day long are the rounds raging without frenzy. Minus the first round of such combats where you lose quite some damage. If you calculate the rounds where you waste damage because of overkill the berserker gets better. If you then remember that the most dangerous enemies may have AC 18 or so and those are the fights where you most likely frenzy, you will notice that despite doing 15% damage on AVERAGE your performance won't lack behind the polearm barbarian.
So in the end, the polearm is a lot better versus low AC targets with high hp. The berserker should be good vs dragons or so. Fear aura, high AC. Enough reach to not let the polearm master not get the extra reaction attack. And last but not least, better athletic checks, saving throws and the versality to use any weapon. Most importantly a javelin that can be used before the polearm master closes to melee.
If that is worth 5 damage on average ok. I think that is about the point where specializing should be. If you don't have advantage in your most favourable situations you did something wrong.

No, the rage damage is +2, and if you're going to try to use the point that 5 dpr is nothing then the amount of "overkill" is negligible, so to trying to use that as a bonus point for the berserker is just petty. You also forget that this whole calculation was made at the absolute most beneficial point for the no feat barbarian, it just gets worse and worse for the no feat barb. So no, in the end the polearm is better at everything besides Mindless Rage, and as I've mentioned over and over, Mindless Rage is the only good part of Berserker.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

So we should agree to disagree here. I didn't say 5 is nothing. I just think you have different assumptions than I have. My calculations are correct. Most peobably yours too.

 

[MindxKiller]

So we should agree to disagree here. I didn't say 5 is nothing. I just think you have different assumptions than I have. My calculations are correct. Most peobably yours too.

Well I mean if you want to disagree with math, you're certainly welcome to your opinion.

 

[Eejit]

Well I mean if you want to disagree with math, you're certainly welcome to your opinion.

I think he disagrees with your extrapolation of the value of that math. As do I.

 

[MindxKiller]

I think he disagrees with your extrapolation of the value of that math. As do I.

Well then let me throw this out to you, instead of using the most favorable of calculations for the no feat barbarian, how about the level 20 comparison against that same AC target, where the featless barbarian does 31 dpr, and 46 while frenzied and caps out at 62 dpr when frenzied AND making his reaction attack. Meanwhile the barbarian with feats does 57 dpr, and 77 dpr for the round that he procs his PM reaction attack (which is fairly often.) I cannot fathom how you people balk at the idea that not using feats makes you substantially worse than those who do. 31 dpr compared to 57 dpr is pretty laughable, and when that berserker goes all out, he BARELY eeks out 5 dpr more than what the barbarian with feats does 24/7/365. Not to mention the barbarian with feats also gets an incredibly reliable reaction attack too, which then makes him even better than the frenzied berserker, except he can do it all day long with no penalties. You need feats to compete with those who have them, its inescapable.

 

[Eejit]

I cannot fathom how you people balk at the idea that not using feats makes you substantially worse than those who do.

Except that's only an argument so you can try to compare apples to apples.
There are other great feats out there which a Berzerker could take which don't overlap with and semi-obsolete Frenzy but which can't be compared mathematically as easily - Sentinel, Martial Adept, Resilient.