D&D 5E Berserker Barbarian Fix?

[Xeviat]

Exactly, GWM PM and SS are vastly superior to +2 in a stat unfortunately, I suppose that's why they made feats optional: They didn't bother balancing them.

Okay, so I went and crunched the numbers; when I initially looked at them, I completely forgot to include the -5 to hit for GWM ... how embarrassing.

So, lets assume the Barbarian only uses GWM with Rage and Reckless Attack:

No Rage, no GWM
Berserker deals 15.5 damage per round
Totem deals 14.35 damage per round (Polearm offhand) or 16.65 per round (if they get a cleave attack)

Rage, GWM +10 damage for Totem
Berserker deals 26.72, or 40.07 with Frenzy
Totem deals 33.90 with Polearm, or 36.33 with Cleave

The difference isn't too bad; it shows up the most when the Berserker isn't using Frenzy. Since Frenzy is only safely used 1/day, this could be an issue. As rage is 3/day (4/day?) at level 8, and combats are 3 rounds each, we get ... about 406.68 for the berserker and 434.25 for the feat using totemic barbarian.

But I think this shows that GWM's +10 damage is the source of the imbalance, not the berserker. The reason I say this is that their damage is nearly equal with Polearm or GWM's bonus attacks.

 

[Xeviat]

I totally agree next edition needs to totally revise this. As i mentioned earlier i just throw hard after hard encounter after hard encounter to soften my party up they cope for the most part.

There was an edition that fixed this.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

So your fighter has an attack bonus of -6?
LFR has ended with 4e, the current organized play is AL
Assuming Str 16 they'd only need a 11, exactly 50% hit chance.
16 actually, unless you really have only 14 Str. However the AC 17 target is one of the really high AC enemies and far from being the norm
Maybe you should talk with your DM, he might be upping the challenge for you, but that's not the mods as written. And I happen to have played all Mulmaster mods except the level 1-2 only intro adventure.


Even assuming the 1st level fighter with +6 to hit vs. AC 17:

Normal: 50% chance for 2d6+3 = 5 damage
GWM: 25% for 2d6+13 = 5 damage

So even against this high AC enemy it just so ties off, for anything below AC 17 GWM cleary wins (vs. AC 16 you already do 9% more damage than without GWM, vs AC 15 you're already at +17%)

And AC <=15 is much more common than AC >=16

And again, not factored +1 to hit + 1 damage for the one without GWM...
-6/+9 is a lot less favourable.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Okay, so I went and crunched the numbers; when I initially looked at them, I completely forgot to include the -5 to hit for GWM ... how embarrassing.

So, lets assume the Barbarian only uses GWM with Rage and Reckless Attack:

No Rage, no GWM
Berserker deals 15.5 damage per round
Totem deals 14.35 damage per round (Polearm offhand) or 16.65 per round (if they get a cleave attack)

Rage, GWM +10 damage for Totem
Berserker deals 26.72, or 40.07 with Frenzy
Totem deals 33.90 with Polearm, or 36.33 with Cleave

The difference isn't too bad; it shows up the most when the Berserker isn't using Frenzy. Since Frenzy is only safely used 1/day, this could be an issue. As rage is 3/day (4/day?) at level 8, and combats are 3 rounds each, we get ... about 406.68 for the berserker and 434.25 for the feat using totemic barbarian.

But I think this shows that GWM's +10 damage is the source of the imbalance, not the berserker. The reason I say this is that their damage is nearly equal with Polearm or GWM's bonus attacks.

That sounds quite fairly calculated and about what I expected. I don´t think the -5/+10 is the imbalance but rather the use with the offhand attack.
Did you calculate that in the round where you activate rage you can´t take a bonus action?
Should equal out both a bit, because the berserker loses one attack while going frenzy, while the polearm barb loses it all the time.

 

[Azurewraith]

Which I mentioned that the low end AC for encounters in LFR games tends to be 17 for 4th level adventures, which is what all the low levels tend to run at in the groupds i've been with. 2nd level only changes the number of monsters not the stats of them, so 17 is still pretty common, with needing 20 isn't all that uncommon. If given easy to hit enemies sure GWM might start being usable, given the usual monster's in organized games the -5/+10 is bad unless you plan on critting things all day. There is also a big difference between calculating number probability vs rolling the dice. As with dice it is possible to roll the same number every time you toss the dice, as the outcome is based on physics not random numbers. Dice are not random at all. They are implied to be random since people tend to not pay attention to how they pick up the dice or how they throw them, but that set of input will always net the exact same roll.

You make it sound like you have masters the exact angle and ammount of force required to all ways roll a 20. Teach me master

 

[jgsugden]

For those that want to use a more useful exercise - don't look at GWM DPR alone, look at what happens when things go bad and you're using GWM. The answer: You're usually increasing the chance of a TPK by using it.

Build a 5th level character (one of the classes that can use a two handed weapon and gets 2 attacks at 5th level). Take GWM as the 4th level feat. Now, put them solo - head to head - with an Earth Elemental (CR 5 - a way more than deadly encounter) in a small space (so they're basically trading blows). When you fight, track the results of the combat twice - once with GWM active (+5/-10, bonus attack on crit), and once with it not active (bonus attack on crit, but no bonus/penalty). GWM active version will hit harder when it hits, but non-GWM version will hit more often, but for 10 less damage. When the monster wins, track how many hps it has left.

On average GWM active will deal more damage. However, there will be some fights that the GWM active version will win that the non=active version would lose, and some that the non-active will win that the GWM will lose.

The interesting thing: How many hps does the monster average having left when the PC loses? How often do you see a nearly full strength elemental when the PC is down?

You see stronger victorious elementals substantially more often with the GWM active version of the PC. Why? More of a chance to whiff. More times that no damage is dealt in a few attacks in a row - and that leaves stronger enemies afloat when luck is against you.

So, although you're dealing more damage on average with GWM, you're also experiencing a higher percentage of situations in which you're ineffectual early in a combat. Over time, with enemies with enough hps that you make a lot of attacks, this impact is negated by probablity's light hand - but in small numbers of attacks, like you see in a battle with an enemy with this many hps (or less), the hand of luck can be felt a lot more dramatically.

On top of this concern, you have to remember that PCs that do a lot of damage in a single swipe often experience more "overkill" - extra damage that exceeds the remaining hps of an enemy and are essentially wasted.

The result: When luck goes bad, you're increasing the chance you're ineffectual and go down leaving a fuller strength monster for allies to handle. Will this happen often? No. But will it happen. Typically, the answer is eventually yes. So, the question comes down to: Would you rather have a higher DPR or be more effective?

 

[Gabriel Pendragon]

No the DM doesn't increase the difficulty, we play the mod as written. Trash mobs might have sub 17 ac, but the strong mobs have 17+ AC, with a cleric enemy we fought just this last month that needed a 24 while it's shield spell was up. also a first level non archer can't get better than +5 to hit as 17 is the max a stat can be at char gen. Unless you are playing a varient human, this means taking GWM at 4th and still sitting on +5 to hit for all low level adventures. DPR assumes mathematical precision, it also assumes that damage isn't being lost from overkill. Hitting more often for less damage reduces the chance and degree of overkill, which increases the effective DPR. The power attack is supposed to be situational, not used every round. Making an attack with advantage and a +d4 to hit? Might be the time to consider going for the massive damage, but the rest of the time? Not worth the risk. Attacking with disadvantage? Don't even think about it.
Ask any gambler, trying to go all in every hand is bad practice, sure it might let you slip ahead here and there or let you knock some one off the table, but more often than not some one will take your pot. "Got to know when to hold em, and know when to fold em..."

 

[Mirtek]

No the DM doesn't increase the difficulty, we play the mod as written.

Not the standard AL mods as written obviously. Just look at DDEX3-3 they just released this month in Dragon. It's for average party level 8 and highest AC in the mod is AC 18 which exactly one enemy has. You even fight a demon patrol where no one has over AC 15. The first two fights have no one with more than AC 13

The enemy with plate and shield and AC 20? Sure, he comes accross occasionally, but is far from the norm. I've seen too many combats destroyed by GWM and SS and my pity cute 1d10+3 being entirely outclassed

Or just go through the monster manual and look how many really high level monsters, up to the high teens, still have AC <16

 

[Gabriel Pendragon]

DDEX 2-16 Was the recent one, needing 17's for the entire adventure to hit mobs, trash was 15's, and we made the DM have headaches when we won the boat fight where we weren't supposed to. Also has a silly bard get insta blapped by a crit after punching the enemy in the face. Good times. I remember needing 17's to hit things in foulness beneath mulmaster, most attacks I can recall I needed either 15 for trash, 17 to hit main enemies or some crazy 20+ crap for the really hard enemies.
Wish finding these pdf's wasn't such a pain

Most enemies tended to get crushed by our ranger dropping all the damages each round. Our paladin using PM never used the power attack either. Lots of maneuvering to stab things when the approached, but never used his power attack.

As I recall AC doesn't scale up all that much at higher levels, as 5e tries to keep AC from getting out of hand for everyone.

 

[devincutler]

What makes you think it sucks? 1 extra attack per round for the most important fight of the day seems better than any of the Totem Spirit features at that level, and 1 level of exhaustion is hardly debilitating. Even level 2 exhaustion isn't so bad, since you get Fast Movement.

Agreed. The first two levels of exhaustion are not that bad. You just need to make sure the 3rd time you use it is the last encounter of the day before a long rest.

There are also ways to remove exhaustion, including Greater Restoration, which the party has at 9th level and while it costs 100 gp to cast, what the hell else are you going to spend money on in 5th edition?