Ranger REG
Explorer
Deadly like a 9th-level spell?C. Baize said:
Best Rules for Automatic Weapons
- Thread starter TheEldereye
- Start date
C. Baize
First Post
Ranger REG said:Deadly like a 9th-level spell?
I dunno...
How many 9th level spells only deal 2d12 damage?
4d12 with the Burst Fire feat (and the specific Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat for the weapon that deals in d12s).
So... use it without burning a feat and suffer -8 to the roll, burn one feat and suffer -4 to the roll, or burn two feats and make the attack normally...
I ... don't see the problem there.
Last edited:
HeapThaumaturgist
First Post
Can you use Burst Fire and Auto Fire at the same time?
Both rules-wise and conceptually.
It's something I never thought about ... I always figured it was a trade-off. Sort of autofire OR burstfire.
--fje
Both rules-wise and conceptually.
It's something I never thought about ... I always figured it was a trade-off. Sort of autofire OR burstfire.
--fje
C. Baize
First Post
HeapThaumaturgist said:
Well... if I'm not much mistaken (I'm no gun nut), Burst Fire is literally a setting that burns 3 or 5 rounds each time you squeeze the trigger, where Automatic just keeps firing as long as you're squeezing the trigger (until you're out of ammo). So, conceptually, they're exclusive one from the other. But in D20 Modern, you need the Burst Fire feat to fire a weapon on "burst" or "auto" setting, and the weapon must contain at least 10 rounds to take advantage of the "Autofire" rule.
Rules wise, "Burst Fire" gives you both capacities.
Ralts Bloodthorne
First Post
In reality, a burst is just that, a short burst of automatic fire. Usually 3-5 shots, that are all fired in automatic mode with a single trigger squeeze. Automatic fire keeps firing the weapon until either the trigger is released or the ammunition is expended.
Since burst fire is just a small "burst" of automatic fire, while the rules may not specifically exclude it, common sense does.
Since burst fire is just a small "burst" of automatic fire, while the rules may not specifically exclude it, common sense does.
Ranger REG
Explorer
Define "same time." If you mean in the same six-second combat round, only if you have multiple attacks due to BAB.HeapThaumaturgist said:
Ralts Bloodthorne
First Post
Well, I did a bit of houseruling for firearms for "All Fall Down" last summer.
It went a bit like this:
Wild Fire: Wild fire can be performed by anyone. This is essentially spraying the area down without regards to anyone actually being hit. Wild Fire covers a 10x10 area, and expends the entire magazine of the weapon or fifty rounds, whichever is less. There must be a minimum of six rounds within the magazine for this to work. Anyone within the 10x10 area must make a Reflex Save (DC: Attackers attack total) or be struck by a single round. If there are more people in the area than rounds in the weapon, they are considered to have been grazed, hit by bullet fragments, or hit by a through and through ricochet. Firing Wild Fire has a -4 attack penalty.
Aimed Shot: An aimed shot is your typical
Burst Fire: Burst fire entials either a quick squeeze of the trigger to expend a small number of rounds via automatic fire, several quick trigger pulls on an automatic weapon, or a weapon with burst fire mode. The weapon requires at least 3 rounds remaining. The burst is -4 to hit (unless Burst Fire feat is possessed, in which case it is only -2) and does an additional die of damage. Burst fire can be used to hit two adjecant targets that have not more than 1 foot between them.
Aimed Burst: This is dropping the entire burst into a single target, usually center mass. The penalty for this is -2 (nothing if the Burst Fire feat is possessed) and the target is considered to have been hit by all three to five rounds (depending upon the weapon). This can only be done untrained if the weapon has burst fire mode. The feat Burst Fire allows someone to do a short burst of automatic fire that expends between 3 and six rounds (1d4+2 rounds) and the target is considered to have been hit by ALL the rounds if the attack roll is successful. The target is granted a single reflex save (DC Attackers total attack roll) for half damage.
Directed Automatic Fire: This is hosing a single area, usually 2 5' area, with directed fully automatic fire, using fire saturation to overcome cover and concealment. A minimum of 10 rounds must be used, and it expends 25% of remaining ammo (or 10 rounds, whichever is greater). If the attacker makes an attack roll for each 5' area. For every 2 points above the target's Defense, the defender is hit with an additional round. Advanced Firearms is needed for this action and the attacker suffers a -2 penalty.
Autofire: This is commonly known as "Spray and Pray" where a large volume of ammuntion is put out in order to hopefully hit as many people as possible. One quarter of the ammunition is expended (or 10 rounds, whichever is greater) when this is done. Autofire covers a total of 10 5' blocks, with the round divided evenly. Targets within the area gain a single reflex check in addition to normal Defense to avoid damage (DC: Attackers total attack). Attackers who fail thier check are hit by the amount of bullets within the 5' area. Without advanced firearms, the amount of bullets is halved (the rest are considered lost due to recoil) and the attack is made at -8. With Advanced Firearms, and autofire attack is made at -4.
There's a bastardized version of the rules, since I'm not adding in the recoil and recoil compensation effects.
It went a bit like this:
Wild Fire: Wild fire can be performed by anyone. This is essentially spraying the area down without regards to anyone actually being hit. Wild Fire covers a 10x10 area, and expends the entire magazine of the weapon or fifty rounds, whichever is less. There must be a minimum of six rounds within the magazine for this to work. Anyone within the 10x10 area must make a Reflex Save (DC: Attackers attack total) or be struck by a single round. If there are more people in the area than rounds in the weapon, they are considered to have been grazed, hit by bullet fragments, or hit by a through and through ricochet. Firing Wild Fire has a -4 attack penalty.
Aimed Shot: An aimed shot is your typical
Burst Fire: Burst fire entials either a quick squeeze of the trigger to expend a small number of rounds via automatic fire, several quick trigger pulls on an automatic weapon, or a weapon with burst fire mode. The weapon requires at least 3 rounds remaining. The burst is -4 to hit (unless Burst Fire feat is possessed, in which case it is only -2) and does an additional die of damage. Burst fire can be used to hit two adjecant targets that have not more than 1 foot between them.
Aimed Burst: This is dropping the entire burst into a single target, usually center mass. The penalty for this is -2 (nothing if the Burst Fire feat is possessed) and the target is considered to have been hit by all three to five rounds (depending upon the weapon). This can only be done untrained if the weapon has burst fire mode. The feat Burst Fire allows someone to do a short burst of automatic fire that expends between 3 and six rounds (1d4+2 rounds) and the target is considered to have been hit by ALL the rounds if the attack roll is successful. The target is granted a single reflex save (DC Attackers total attack roll) for half damage.
Directed Automatic Fire: This is hosing a single area, usually 2 5' area, with directed fully automatic fire, using fire saturation to overcome cover and concealment. A minimum of 10 rounds must be used, and it expends 25% of remaining ammo (or 10 rounds, whichever is greater). If the attacker makes an attack roll for each 5' area. For every 2 points above the target's Defense, the defender is hit with an additional round. Advanced Firearms is needed for this action and the attacker suffers a -2 penalty.
Autofire: This is commonly known as "Spray and Pray" where a large volume of ammuntion is put out in order to hopefully hit as many people as possible. One quarter of the ammunition is expended (or 10 rounds, whichever is greater) when this is done. Autofire covers a total of 10 5' blocks, with the round divided evenly. Targets within the area gain a single reflex check in addition to normal Defense to avoid damage (DC: Attackers total attack). Attackers who fail thier check are hit by the amount of bullets within the 5' area. Without advanced firearms, the amount of bullets is halved (the rest are considered lost due to recoil) and the attack is made at -8. With Advanced Firearms, and autofire attack is made at -4.
There's a bastardized version of the rules, since I'm not adding in the recoil and recoil compensation effects.
Ranger REG
Explorer
I thought the penalties also factor in any recoil from ballistic firearms weapons.Warlord Ralts said:
Or is recoil so crucial that it warrants its own specific rules mechanics?
Ralts Bloodthorne
First Post
What's the penalty for firing an upsupported M-82 sniper rifle?Ranger REG said:
What's the penalty for firing off a burst from a M-2 GPHMG?
How much of a difference does it make using a Harris Bipod for recoil compensation when firing an M-4 assault rifle on burst fire or automatic fire (depending on your version)
How much of a difference is there between firing a M-249 SAW on the move, prone with the bipod, from a vehicle ringmount, from a tripod in a fixed, sandbagged position.
The penalties in the rules above are quick, dirty, and not exactly what we used then, because we incorperated recoil rules also.
Once again...
Translation:he rules as listed in the post above have penalties that prefactor in recoil, because I didn't feel like putting the recoil and recoil compensation rules.Warlord Ralts said:
C. Baize
First Post
Ranger REG said:
I would say that depends on the weapon in question.
Afterall, with the Personal Firearms Proficiency, I can fire a .22 semi automatic pistol (so little recoil that it's negligible), or a 9mm semi automatic pistol (enough recoil that it's noticeable and affects the aim on several quick shots), or a .44 Magnum revolver (with significant recoil, requiring you to reacquire your target, assuming it's still standing).
By the rules as written, recoil for one (-4 without the feat) is the same as recoil for any of the others.
I'm all for further options.
Further options allow me to include them or not.
So... are they crucial enough to be necessary?
Probably not.
But I welcome the option to include it if I want.
