D&D 5E Binders in 5e

[Hussar]

Just noodling around. How hard do you think it would be to do an almost direct import of the 3e Binder Class into 5e? What would need to change?

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Just noodling around. How hard do you think it would be to do an almost direct import of the 3e Binder Class into 5e? What would need to change?

I love binders!

After a quick review:

Binding DCs would have to come down to comply with bounded accuracy. Bind checks based use proficiency bonus instead of binder level.

Vestige ability DCs likewise use the 5E 8 + proficiency formula.

No bonus feats. Perhaps replace with Expel Vestige/Rapid Pact Making/Rapid Recovery as class features?

Pact Augmentation's little bonuses don't jive well with 5E philosophy. They work, but they feel wrong.

Slippery Mind doesn't do the same thing in 5E.

Immunity to energy drain and negative levels becomes immunity to hit point maximum reduction (and resistance to necrotic damage? or maybe psychic damage is more thematic in this instance).

The class relies on weapon attacks enough that it's going to need some more damage scaling to compete. For this quick and dirty conversion, I'd just give them Extra Attack at 5th.

Acererak: Detect undead and hide from undead spells no longer exist; effects would have to be enumerated. Undead Healing is inconsistent with the way undead work now in 5E: necrotic damage doesn't heal them anymore.

Agares: Earth and Air Mastery has a 3E-style incremental modifier effect; I'd replace with "As long as you're on the ground, airborne foes have disadvantage on attack rolls against you". Elemental Companion doesn't work because there's only one size of earth elemental now.

Amon: For Ram's Attack, no such thing as a charge anymore; replace with "if you move ten feet in a straight line" or something. Might want to take another look at Fire breath's damage scaling, although I don't think it's critical.

Andras: Saddle Sure breaks bounded accuracy; replace with expertise or advantage. Smite Good or Evil replicates the paladin ability, but paladins work differently now. Sure Blows refers to the Improved Critical feat; just spell out its effect.

Andromalius: Sense Trickery breaks bounded accuracy; replace with expertise or advantage. Sneak Attack triggers according to old rogue rules; update to use new rogue rules.

Aym: Dwarven Step far less useful; I recommend replacing it with a carrying capacity increase. Halo of Fire refers to melee touch attacks, and really really sucks if you replace it with regular melee attacks (actually it already sucked); up the damage and/or make it scale. Improved Sunder does not exist; replace with advantage on Strength checks to break items or something. Resistance to fire 10 becomes fire resistance.

Balam: Gaze attacks are not a standardized rule concept anymore; enumerate the effect. Prescience breaks bounded accuracy; replace with the ability to cast augury or something. Weapon Finesse does not exist and has a redundant effect; replace with extra damage or crit range or something for light weapons.

Buer: Buer's Knowledge breaks bounded accuracy; replace with expertise or advantage. Fast Healing becomes regeneration. Fast Healing and Healing Gift give the binder access to anti-attrition power no other class can match, but they did that in 3E too, so I think I'd leave them be. Healing Gift uses full-round actions; just make it an action, since it still puts the ability on cooldown. No such thing as the Track feat; just consider this effect part of Buer's Knowledge.

Chupoclops: Aura of Despair is more 3E math; replace with bane at will or something. Ethereal jaunt doesn't exist anymore; enumerate its effect. Incorporeal creatures work differently for Ghost Touch; change it to make your melee weapons count as magical. Have Poison Bite usable as a bonus action, to mimic how it worked as an extra attack in 3E. Also, change its name, because it's not and never has been poisonous. Pounce was really powerful in 3E but redundant in 5E, and the new 5E monsters' "Pounce" doesn't seem appropriate here; replace with advantage on attack rolls at the end of moving 10 feet in a straight line. No such thing as deathwatch; enumerate its effect.

Dahlver-Nar: Mad Soul becomes immunity to charm effects. Maddening Moan causes nonexistent dazed effect; replace with frightened. Natural Armor breaks bounded accuracy; replace with barbarian-style Unarmored Defense or just a flat +1 AC.

Dantalion: Dantalion Knows breaks bounded accuracy; replace with expertise or advantage.

Eligor: Eligor's Skill in the Saddle references nonexistent feats; replace with expertise or advantage on Animal Handling with mounts. Eligor's Strength is a no-no; replace with +2 damage with melee weapons. Eligor's Resilience breaks bounded accuracy; replace with +1 AC.

Eurynome: No such thing as lawful weapons; they were rare enough anyway, just make it a flat 2 DR. Eurynome's Maul references the nonexistent anarchic weapon property, and is just really damn good; replace with a warhammer that counts as magical with no other bonus, and doesn't scale. Poison Blood uses 3E-style "after 1 minute" poison rules; just do all the damage immediately.

Focalor: Aura of Sadness is more 3E-style math; replace with bane again or something.

Geryon: Enumerate how the gaze effect works on Acidic Gaze. All-Around Vision breaks bounded accuracy; replace with expertise or advantage.

Haagenti: Spell out how the confusion effect works for Confusing Touch.

Halphax: Replace Damage Reduction to resistance to non-adamantine bludgeoning/piercing/slashing damage. Halphax's Knowledge breaks bounded accuracy; replace with expertise or advantage, and find 5E skills or tools to apply them to. Leomund's secure shelter no longer exists; spell out its effect.

Haures: Replace the 50% miss chance in Incorporeal Movement to resistance to be consistent with other 5E incorporeal effects.

Ipos: Ipos's Influence references your effective binder level, which is something 5E doesn't mess with. I'd just cut that, but leave the DC boost; that's a rare and powerful enough effect in 5E on its own. Rend is no longer a common monster ability, but I don't see anything wrong with it.

Karsus: Reduce the Heavy Magic DC bonus to +1 just to be safe in bounded accuracy land. Update Karsus's Touch to be consistent with 5E dispel magic. Change Karsus's Will to say you count as a spellcaster for the purpose of attunement. Note: Given 5E's deemphasis on magic items, consider overhauling Karsus entirely.

Leraje: Hide Bonus breaks bounded accuracy; replace with expertise or advantage. Low-Light Vision becomes Darkvision. Precise Shot doesn't exist; replace with ignoring the effect of cover a la Sharpshooter. Replace the attack bonus in Weapon Proficiency with a damage bonus.

Malphas: Invisibility is a full-round action; make it an action, but add that movement breaks the effect. Change Sudden Strike to trigger when you have advantage on the attack roll.

Marchosias: Update Death Attack to the assassin rogue's Death Strike. Silent and Sure breaks bounded accuracy; replace with expertise or advantage.

Naberius: Just make Faster Ability Healing immunity to ability reductions; they're so rare anyway. Have Naberius's Skills add half your proficiency bonus to chosen skills a la Jack of All Trades, since trained-only isn't a thing anymore. Change Silver Tongue to advantage on Charisma checks to calm hostile creatures.

Orthos: Change Displacement to simply impose disadvantage on attack rolls. Take a look at the scaling on Whirlwind Breath's damage. The whispering wind spell doesn't exist; enumerate its effect.

Paimon: Dance of Death is something everybody can do in 5E by default; replace with an extra attack. Replace Paimon's Dexterity with +2 damage with light weapons. Replace Paimon's Skills with advantage or expertise. Update Uncanny Dodge to match the 5E version of the ability. The Whirlwind Attack feat doesn't exist; replace with the hunter ranger ability.

Ronove: Far Hand is weird; just replace it with mage hand plus a simple spiritual weapon-style attack. Ronove's Fists: No such thing as Improved Unarmed Strike, or need for it. Monks do less damage in 5E, so maybe let Ronove's Fists also grant that bonus action attack.

Savnok: Call Armor breaks bounded accuracy if it scales, and is good enough without. Move Ally needs some slight rewording as "move actions" are no longer a thing. Savnok's Armor scales too fast; replace with resistance to nonmagical bludgeoning and slashing (all bludgeoning and slashing at 13th).

Shax: Shax seems fine as-is.

Tenebrous: No such thing as deeper darkness; just make it darkness. Update Turn/Rebuke Undead to match the 5E cleric. Spell out the flicker effect of Vessel of Emptiness.

Zagan: Update Aversion to match 5E antipathy. Improved Grapple doesn't exist; replace with advantage on grapple checks. Scent becomes advantage on Perception checks to track by scent. Constrict uses old grapple rules; change to improved damage when you make an unarmed attack against a grappled creature. Drop the attack bonus on Snake Bane.

 

[Hussar]

Holy crap dude. That's bloody excellent work. I'm on my phone so no posrep right now but damn that's good.

 

[The Jenneral]

Middle Finger of Vecna's Binder might be of interest for inspiration if nothing else.

 

[fuindordm]

A few of the vestiges made it into Curse of Strahd... that made me happy.

I think a warlock is already a pretty good model for the Binder class. Maybe you could introduce a new Warlock subclass that can has to learn specific Patrons like wizards learn spells, but can change its patron after a short rest and with a skill check. If you manage to change your patron, then you can change one known spell and one invocation to options from the new patron's signature powers.

 

[Wednesday Boy]

Here's a homebrew that seemed promising: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?417626-5e-Vestige-pact-warlock-(a-k-a-binder)

 

[TheCosmicKid]

I think a warlock is already a pretty good model for the Binder class. Maybe you could introduce a new Warlock subclass that can has to learn specific Patrons like wizards learn spells, but can change its patron after a short rest and with a skill check. If you manage to change your patron, then you can change one known spell and one invocation to options from the new patron's signature powers.

I think doing the binder justice on the warlock model might be possible, but it'd be more work than converting directly like I just did. The essential difference between a standard 5E warlock and a binder is that the warlock gets most of his powers irrespective of his patron choice, whereas the binder gets all of her powers from her vestiges. So to be faithful to that, I'd want a vestige-pact warlock to throw out the standard spell and invocation list entirely. Give each vestige a couple of activated powers to be fueled by your spell slots (this actually squares really well with the 3E cooldown abilities) and a couple of passive powers to replace invocations. You can bind one vestige at 1st, two at 7th, three at 12th, and four at 18th (i.e., a normal warlock's invocation count halved).

Oh, and maybe do something to compensate for not having eldritch blast. Definitely don't put eldritch blast on a vestige because that instantly makes it a must-have.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Middle Finger of Vecna's Binder might be of interest for inspiration if nothing else.

This is good stuff. I'd run or play this.