D&D General Bizuids and Clercerocks

[Tonguez]

Internal - Scorcerer, Monk, Barbarian - call on the energies imbued within themselves
Mechanical - Wizard, Alchemist, Bard - they learn techniques to manipulate the ambient magic of their world
External - Druid, Cleric, Warlock, Paladin - they channel power from outside themselves (Druids tap in to Primal energy of the Material Plain)

 

[Ancalagon]

Internal - Scorcerer, Monk, Barbarian - call on the energies imbued within themselves
Mechanical - Wizard, Alchemist, Bard - they learn techniques to manipulate the ambient magic of their world
External - Druid, Cleric, Warlock, Paladin - they channel power from outside themselves (Druids tap in to Primal energy of the Material Plain)

I would add fighter and rogue to the mechanical list.

Psion would be internal, so perhaps the psi warrior and soul knife would be internal?

 

[Tonguez]

I would add fighter and rogue to the mechanical list.

Psion would be internal, so perhaps the psi warrior and soul knife would be internal?

Yeah I,d make Psionics internal

Imc I group physical attack as Kinetic energy, so yep Fighter masters mechanical techniques to increase and impart 'Kinetic energy'.

 

[RainOnTheSun]

Internal - Scorcerer, Monk, Barbarian - call on the energies imbued within themselves
Mechanical - Wizard, Alchemist, Bard - they learn techniques to manipulate the ambient magic of their world
External - Druid, Cleric, Warlock, Paladin - they channel power from outside themselves (Druids tap in to Primal energy of the Material Plain)

This isn't the first time this distinction has come up, and I have to admit I still don't get it. In what way is a druid's power source more external than that of a wizard or an alchemist? Is it just the ability score they cast with?

 

[Minigiant]

Why a warlock would sell his soul when he could learn it as a wizard? Because is faster and easier. I can spend years of my life to study Calculus, Physics, and other topics to be an engineer, and even that knowledge would be crude without another years practicing and learn how to adjust on the fly in a real situation where my technical skills are needed...

... OR I can sell my soul to the Demogorgon of Engineering and, voilà, in a few seconds I have all the knowledge and practice I need.

I am not saying the second approach is better or without risks or faults. But I can see why it is compelling for many people. The shortest road to the same end. I also can see why wizards tend to do not like warlocks very much, considering them as fake upstarts.

I believe 3e had a stating age stat to display how much easier it was to learn the knowledge to become 1st level and continue on one's own independently.

The "academic classes" had higher starting age.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Why a warlock would sell his soul when he could learn it as a wizard? Because is faster and easier. I can spend years of my life to study Calculus, Physics, and other topics to be an engineer, and even that knowledge would be crude without another years practicing and learn how to adjust on the fly in a real situation where my technical skills are needed...

... OR I can sell my soul to the Demogorgon of Engineering and, voilà, in a few seconds I have all the knowledge and practice I need.

I am not saying the second approach is better or without risks or faults. But I can see why it is compelling for many people. The shortest road to the same end. I also can see why wizards tend to do not like warlocks very much, considering them as fake upstarts.

I can spend years of my life to become a good Engineer.

Or I can get a problematic investor to loan me a couple mil and just hire one and get my project engineer'd without ever having to learn math more complicated than "Now I owe that guy a couple mil."

And, let's be honest, when the debt comes due, I'm just going to fire an engineer or cut a few corners on my bridge and no one will be the wiser.

If wizards are engineers, warlocks are entrepreneurs, getting projects done by money and charm more than by skill. I don't need to learn engineering, I just need to make some promises to a shady guy who can find me an engineer.

 

[I'm A Banana]

This isn't the first time this distinction has come up, and I have to admit I still don't get it. In what way is a druid's power source more external than that of a wizard or an alchemist? Is it just the ability score they cast with?

Nah, it's the idea that "nature," as a source of power, is not inside of you. Druids are dealing with elemental forces, fey beings, plants, beasts, spirits. They're shamans, chatting up the local rivers or volcanoes. The narrative idea is that these things are giving you their power to use when you prepare your spells, just as the gods are giving clerics their power. The power of entangle isn't you personally manipulating plants, it's you asking the plants to do something for you.

In comparison, a wizard casting the same spell would be animating the plants and forcing them into the described effect.

Or maybe, charm person (I make you my friend whether you like it or not) vs. animal friendship ("Let's you and me be friends!")

 

[M_Natas]

For me?

Arcane Magic is learned Magic

• Wizards learned Magic. In a school, or from a master ... like an IT, Physics or Chemistry student of today.
• Bards went also to magic school, but they decided to get for The theater / arts program. So their theoretical magical knowledge is less, but they are better with people.
• Artificers are engineering school.
• Eldritch Knight - military school

- The 5e Warlock is an arcane caster. He learns his Magic and he doesn't loose his Magic, RAW. So what he is, is basically a hacker script kiddy with a sugar daddy who pays for him to get him some shiny toys. His theoretical foundation is very bad.

- Sorcerers: they get somehow infused with magic, can connect to the weave and can cast it naturally. They are more akin to magical beasts. They are a class of their own.

- Clerics: They are like ... apple users - they worship something and trough that get access to an interface that allows them to do stuff. But they have no Idea how any of that works and it can be taken away at any moment by their provider. Like product as a service.

- Paladins in 5e work like ... just strongly believing in abstract ideals/themselves? The 5e Paladin lore is bad and the real culprit that needs to be scrutinised.

- Druids: I mean, they work like clerics ... but in practice they are just learning wood magic - so they are more akin to wood wizards. I mean, there is a whole new book (Druid's Call) where they have a Druid wizard school in the forest.

So basically - Druids, Warlocks, Bards, Eldritch Knights are all lesser wizards who weren't able to get into a good wizard school, while Clerics are sucking the bosom of their idol and Paladins are paladining and Sorcerers are the one class that was invented to give Main Caharacters their cake without them having to work for it.

 

[Tonguez]

This isn't the first time this distinction has come up, and I have to admit I still don't get it. In what way is a druid's power source more external than that of a wizard or an alchemist? Is it just the ability score they cast with?

I suppose its campaign specific but like @I’m A Banana said, Nature is an external entity which the Druid communes with - the animal friendship analogy is a good one. Its also seen in use of the Druidic Focus, instead of Spell Components to form a link with ‘The Power of Nature’, and thus becoming part of the ‘Weave’. Druids like Clerics and Warlocks are asking for favours and being allowed to channel a bit of power.

Mechanical techniques on the other hand are about picking at bits of the weave and changing its form.
Alchemy is about isolating 'essential' materials and blending them into useful mixtures (potions, artifacts etc) which can then be used for effect, Wizards use somatic, verbal and material components in specific formula to manipulate “arcane energy” as spells, Bards learn to master particular tones, rhythms and resonance to induce effects - the arcana is external but being manipulated and reshaped via ‘tools’.

 

[RainOnTheSun]

Nah, it's the idea that "nature," as a source of power, is not inside of you. Druids are dealing with elemental forces, fey beings, plants, beasts, spirits. They're shamans, chatting up the local rivers or volcanoes. The narrative idea is that these things are giving you their power to use when you prepare your spells, just as the gods are giving clerics their power. The power of entangle isn't you personally manipulating plants, it's you asking the plants to do something for you.

In comparison, a wizard casting the same spell would be animating the plants and forcing them into the described effect.

Or maybe, charm person (I make you my friend whether you like it or not) vs. animal friendship ("Let's you and me be friends!")

So when a wizard casts the same spell, what's entangling the plants for him? It's still not him personally manipulating them, he still can't do it without casting a spell to invoke some kind of energy that isn't in his body.