Black Widow teaser

Sadras

Adventurer
He wouldn’t agree with you.
Seriously, which part?

1. That I miss the days of George Carlin?
Surely not?

2. Because the word fat is now offensive?
Really, a man who loved using the word? Nvm wanting to describe some kids as slow or stupid.

3. Stand-up comedy must be dying in the USA?
You mean with the increased freedom of speech which now exists? Do google his thoughts on the ever-growing and helpful euphemisms we have created.
 
Last edited:

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Seriously, which part?

1. That I miss the days of George Carlin?
Surely not?

2. Because the word fat is now offensive?
Really, a man who loved using the word? Nvm wanting to describe some kids as slow or stupid.

3. Stand-up comedy must be dying in the USA?
You mean with the increased freedom of speech which now exists? Do google his thoughts on the ever-growing and helpful euphemisms we have created.
If you’re curious on my thoughts about that you can read them in this very thread. I’m not going to have the same conversation twice in 24 hours in the same thread.
 

lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
Eh, the second one is overblown. Using people who are already social punching bags as a punchline isn’t good behavior. That has nothing to do with my sense of humor, and is even something that Carlin criticized doing.
Eh, I think that as we often see, the second concern isn't overblown.

Humor (comedy) serves many social purposes; while the first I mentioned (the ratification of social status through the use of demeaning or bullying rhetoric; or to create a sense of otherness) is terrible, there are many positive uses of humor that can often get unfairly swept up.

And, tbh, it is often the lowest common denominator, aka, those without a sense of humor, who are most likely to miss the point entirely. And because humor can be subtle, counterintuitive, sarcastic, ironic, subtextual, and often forces people to understand a broader context, it can be easily misunderstood.

That’s a disparity that doesn’t actually exist, though. You can use obesity as an example of hyper-consumerism without blaming fat people and calling them idiots for being fat.

He used fat people as a punch line to get everyone listen to his point. That isn't necessarily actually better than just making the fat joke without a greater context.
Yeah, you could think that. But you could also look carefully at what Carlin does, and what he did in the overall context of that extended riff.

First, he sets up the overall idea. (Americans are dumb)
Then, he gets the complicity of the audience. This is a common Carlin maneuver- I'm not talking about you, the audience, I'm talking about those other people.
Then he mocks a subject with exaggerated language. (Consumers as mindless, fat people buying and eating)

....At this point, the audience is laughing at THE OTHER (the dumb Americans).

Then he wraps the joke around to the real point. The moneyed business interests. The ones that are screwing people. The ones that are screwing Americans.

....the ones that you don't even notice.

So the people you were laughing at? That's you. And you didn't even notice. It's a classic structure Carlin often employs - get the audience buy in, get the audience laughing at a target, reveal the actual target, show the audience that they have really been laughing at themselves. Admittedly, it goes right by some people who never really get the point, or the real humor (see also, Chappelle ending his original show because he saw that, increasingly, people weren't understanding the actual joke), but it's right there.

And it would be a shame if we let censorious individuals reduce this to a "I think he was being mean to fat people."

Now, maybe I'm giving Carlin too much credit. But I don't think so. People can certainly argue about whether this is his best execution of this form (very few people would say that this period was his best work), but that's a much different conversation than whether or not this is just some fat jokes, or whether Carlin sufficiently explains the root causes of obesity.
 
Last edited:

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Eh, I think that as we often see, the second concern isn't overblown.

Humor (comedy) serves many social purposes; while the first I mentioned (the ratification of social status through the use of demeaning or bullying rhetoric; or to create a sense of otherness) is terrible, there are many positive uses of humor that can often get unfairly swept up.

And, tbh, it is often the lowest common denominator, aka, those without a sense of humor, who are most likely to miss the point entirely. And because humor can be subtle, counterintuitive, sarcastic, ironic, subtextual, and often forces people to understand a broader context, it can be easily misunderstood.



Yeah, you could think that. But you could also look carefully at what Carlin does, and what he did in the overall context of that extended riff.

First, he sets up the overall idea. (Americans are dumb)
Then, he gets the complicity of the audience. This is a common Carlin maneuver- I'm not talking about you, the audience, I'm talking about those other people.
Then he mocks a subject with exaggerated language. (Consumers as mindless, fat people buying and eating)

....At this point, the audience is laughing at THE OTHER (the dumb Americans).

Then he wraps the joke around to the real point. The moneyed business interests. The ones that are screwing people. The ones that are screwing Americans.

....the ones that you don't even notice.

So the people you were laughing at? That's you. And you didn't even notice. It's a classic structure Carlin often employs - get the audience buy in, get the audience laughing at a target, reveal the actual target, show the audience that they have really been laughing at themselves. Admittedly, it goes right by some people who never really get the point, or the real humor (see also, Chappelle ending his original show because he saw that, increasingly, people weren't understanding the actual joke), but it's right there.

And it would be a shame if we let censorious individuals reduce this to a "I think he was being mean to fat people."

Now, maybe I'm giving Carlin too much credit. But I don't think so. People can certainly argue about whether this is his best execution of this form (very few people would say that this period was his best work), but that's a much different conversation than whether or not this is just some fat jokes, or whether Carlin sufficiently explains the root causes of obesity.
Okay, probably the last thing I’ll say on this, because I feel like we barely disagree and dissecting this is making it seem like we are further apart than we are.

My issue with the bit isn’t really that Carlin pokes fun at American consumerism via fat people, although that has always bothered me.*

The issue is that while using fat people as a prop to draw in the audience, he also still actually really does blame fat people for being too stupid to not get fat. The fact that he turns that around on the audience doesn’t change how ugly it is, or how objectively incorrect.

He gets very close, and I’m not sure I really 100% blame him for being wrong on it since most people were back then, but he is still wrong.

Obesity isn’t an epidemic because of people eating too many ounces of food per meal, or too many meals. It’s an epidemic because there is little external incentive to be strenuously active for most people (and humans are evolutionarily inclined toward “efficiency” aka laziness), and because all pre-prepared foods contain vastly too much salt and sugar, and are too highly processed, so the same poundage of food is higher in calories, and more importantly sugar specifically.

And that is a thing that “the real owners” have done to us knowingly because they don’t care if their wealth comes from ruining the health of multiple generations.

*Carlin meant well, but using a common social punching bag as a punching bag in your bit to draw the audience in doesn’t become good just because you’re gonna make a really good point at the end.

The ends don’t justify the means.
 

lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
The ends don’t justify the means.
At a certain point, I feel like you are saying to me, "Look. I get that maybe Swift wasn't really advocating for cannibalism. Maybe. But really now, can't you see that the issue of endemic poverty and the British rule over Ireland is much to serious a topic to be taken lightly? Sure, Swift meant well, but using the poor and the Irish as punching bags, and suggesting that they engage in cannibalism and infanticide in his bit in order to draw in the unsuspecting audience doesn't become good just because he might be making a really good point in the end.

The end doesn't justify the means."



...as I was saying, that's the difficulty with people policing humor. You are certainly welcome to think that he is unfunny, or that he did not successfully execute his attempt at humor (political humor in this case). But I think it is unreasonable in the extreme to expect Carlin to be going on an extended monologue about your conception re: the obesity epidemic in America when that wasn't the point.
 
Last edited:

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
At a certain point, I feel like you are saying to me, "Look. I get that maybe Swift wasn't really advocating for cannibalism. Maybe. But really now, can't you see that the issue of endemic poverty and the British rule over Ireland is much to serious a topic to be taken lightly? Sure, Swift meant well, but using the poor and the Irish as punching bags, and suggesting that they engage in cannibalism and infanticide in his bit in order to draw in the unsuspecting audience doesn't become good just because he might be making a really good point in the end.

The end doesn't justify the means."



...as I was saying, that's the difficulty with people policing humor. You are certainly welcome to think that he is unfunny, or that he did not successfully execute his attempt at humor (political humor in this case). But I think it is unreasonable in the extreme to expect Carlin to be going on an extended monologue about your conception re: the obesity epidemic in America when that wasn't the point.
Swift was Irish.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Um.... I think you might be entirely missing the point here.
Ditto. If Carlin was fat, vanishingly few fat people would be offended by him using a thing he experiences as a way to draw an audience into a bit.

Because when you’re part of the group, you have more room to joke about being in the group without being a jerk.
 

CapnZapp

Hero
so...we gonna toss theories,ideas etc about Black Widow or should I ask the mods to just change the title of this thread to something else?
This thread would indeed be best served by being retitled into something else, since it has been successfully and thoroughly derailed.

(If y'all want to argue EVERY Black Widow thread deserves to be drowned in fat-shaming-shaming then please do it here while I go elsewhere.)
 

lowkey13

I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
Ditto. If Carlin was fat, vanishingly few fat people would be offended by him using a thing he experiences as a way to draw an audience into a bit.

Because when you’re part of the group, you have more room to joke about being in the group without being a jerk.
.....and I'll end it here, by saying that he wasn't joking about the Irish. That's the point. In fact, he wasn't given "room to joke" because he was Irish. Because, again, Swift didn't really consider himself Irish,* the Irish weren't the audience, and that was a different time.

The point is that if you read that and think it's really about punching down against the poor and the Irish, then you're really missing the point. Which often happens with satire, sarcasm, sardonic takes, black humor, irony, and other forms of comedy. It's really odd to me that someone would look at easily the most famous historical example of satire and say, "Yeah, Swift only got away with it because he was born in Ireland." It just doesn't compute. It's completely ahistorical.


As for the OP- Black Widow. Looks good. About time.


*The quote from Swift is that he was an "Englishman born in Ireland" and a member of the Anglican Church.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
.....and I'll end it here, by saying that he wasn't joking about the Irish. That's the point. In fact, he wasn't given "room to joke" because he was Irish. Because, again, Swift didn't really consider himself Irish,* the Irish weren't the audience, and that was a different time.

The point is that if you read that and think it's really about punching down against the poor and the Irish, then you're really missing the point. Which often happens with satire, sarcasm, sardonic takes, black humor, irony, and other forms of comedy. It's really odd to me that someone would look at easily the most famous historical example of satire and say, "Yeah, Swift only got away with it because he was born in Ireland." It just doesn't compute. It's completely ahistorical.


As for the OP- Black Widow. Looks good. About time.


*The quote from Swift is that he was an "Englishman born in Ireland" and a member of the Anglican Church.
You’ve completely misunderstood my point about Swift. I never suggested that he was punching down on the Irish. 🤷‍♂️
 

Gradine

Final Form
I just wanted to complain about another cheap, stupid, low-hanging-fruit fat joke in a Marvel movie for a sec. I didn't mean for it devolve into a 40-post argument about the legacy of George Carlin.

The movie looks pretty cool though.
 

Advertisement

Top