Black Widow teaser

[lowkey13]

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[doctorbadwolf]

I don't know. I think it's, well, complicated. More complicated than many people want to let on. I mean - just look at this; you can't invoke Carlin without recognizing that many of his routines aren't cutting edge today- a lot of comedy is very time-sensitive, especially comedy that deliberately shocks. (I mean, Lenny Bruce is amazing for many reasons, but he's not actually ... ha ha funny to modern sensibilities).

It's very easy to say something like that the particular routine was just a cheap fat joke, because of the excessive and shocking verbiage. But it was also a critique of American culture at the time, and part of the overall "argument" in that Carlin was making.

Look at what @Umbran just wrote; yes, there are many serious issues. And one approach is to always treat those serious issues, seriously. Deferentially. But that's not the only approach. We laugh about the most serious things there are, and always have - death, for example ("black humor"). Whether you subscribe to the Aristotelian/Plato view of humor (that humor is scorn and malicious) or not, I think that it is dangerous to begin roping off areas as being "too serious" or "too important" to approach with a comedic view.

That's not to say that there is some validity in acknowledging cliche or bad jokes as either being tired or reinforcing incorrect stereotypes ("My airplane food tastes like ..." "Yo mama so fat ..." "White people do this, Black people do this"), or, just as important, not seeing that some forms of humor have been used to bully and marginalize people, which is never right, BUT ....

I think it is incredibly wrong to say that certain types of comedy are wrong because it's a serious issue, as opposed to focusing on whether or not a particular joke is good. In fact, sometimes comedy can serve a useful purpose solely because it hits on a verboten issue and there is a release because the topic was broached (see also, variations of the Aristocrats).

So, typos are really annoying. I typed that it wasn’t just a cheap fat joke. Probably missed a letter and it corrected to “was”.

My point was exactly that Carlin didn’t do that. He shocked, but he did so while making a point about society, which is why I doubt he’d agree with the sentiment that something is missing from modern comedy.

As for comedy on serious topics, I agree completely. In general, though, if a comedian isn’t part of a group involved with a serious issue, they should be pretty damn careful making jokes about it.

 

[Umbran]

Look at what @Umbran just wrote; yes, there are many serious issues. And one approach is to always treat those serious issues, seriously. Deferentially. But that's not the only approach. We laugh about the most serious things there are, and always have - death, for example ("black humor"). Whether you subscribe to the Aristotelian/Plato view of humor (that humor is scorn and malicious) or not, I think that it is dangerous to begin roping off areas as being "too serious" or "too important" to approach with a comedic view.

Let me be clear - I didn't say anything about it being too serious to joke about. I said the way he did it was hurtful. While Carlin may have felt he was observing culture in that segment, what he was actually doing was normalizing bullying people for their weight. He misidentified the root cultural phenomenon he was observing, and took easy shots at the wrong targets.

This is a possible problem any time a comedian takes shots at an entire demographic group, rather than an individual. I this case, Carlin got it wrong, and it aged very poorly as our understanding has increased.

It is a darn shame, because I think Carlin could have taken wonderful shots at the right targets.

Now, in the right context (which may appear in the movie) the Harbour thing may actually be good - a bit of wistful self-effacement on how middle-age takes us all, eventually. And maybe it even turns into something more like what Lebowski-Thor eventually gets us - body shape doesn't determine value.

 

[lowkey13]

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[lowkey13]

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[doctorbadwolf]

While I think that a comedian should be careful (and always strive for the better, less obvious joke), I also think it's important to give space for comedy to breathe, evolve, and change.

Think of any field that people get involved in; more often than not, you don't start out doing your best. The short stories you write in college are unlikely to be as nuanced or evolved as the novel you might write in your later 20s, with more reps. And so on.

Comedy is hard; go to any open mike night and you'll see! But the type of observational humor (and cultural critique, satire, and so one) will disappear completely if we begin to make comedy off-limits to people that don't belong to a group; whether it's "only people of X race can talk about X race" or "only people of X gender identify can talk about X gender identity" or "only people of X body size can talk about X body size" or "only people of X religion can talk about X religion" or "only people of X political party can talk about X political party."

The general hope is that, like with any craft, the level of comfort and facility improves. And, in some case, certain jokes may never be for certain audiences; humor is incredibly subjective. For example, while I find John Oliver absolutely hilarious, I know someone who believes he is an obnoxious, biased scold.

I would even go so far as to say that most truly good comedy has to alienate someone, somewhere. Gentle and anodyne comedy always has its place, but (to quote John Hodgman) specificity is the soul of narrative, and general and gentle comedy may be good for chuckles, but rarely elicits more than that (or is fodder for thought or change).

TLDR; great comedy often provokes, offends, or shocks in some manner, and it is better to allow for breathing space (in terms of saying, "That's not funny to me" and explaining why) than to categorically deny it.

I’m fine with all that, and actively agree with most of it.

When I say comedians have to be careful, I simply mean exactly that. If I, a white Hispanic dude, make a joke involving Black people/culture, it is even more important than otherwise that I’m not “punching down”. That doesn’t mean I can’t make jokes about the differences between Black and White American culture, or about racism, it just means that it is a much more “dangerous” territory for me.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

You think that the entire part of that act (discussing what he perceived to be the problems with consumerist culture, specifically Americans lulled into eating and buying stuff continuously to their own detriment while transferring all the wealth in the country to the richest) was misidentifying the target he was going for?

Tbf, he is kinda still “aiming” at the consumer, rather than the people making and selling the food, or creating the conditions where the cheap food is high calorie garbage full of excess sugar, etc.

OTOH, he aims more strongly at the rich and powerful, as he almost always does, and at the fact that they are so greedy that they will destroy the health of generations of their neighbors to make a few extra bucks they’ll never even spend.

 

[lowkey13]

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[lowkey13]

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[Umbran]

...specifically Americans lulled into eating and buying stuff continuously to their own detriment while transferring all the wealth in the country to the richest) was misidentifying the target he was going for?

So, let us be clear in language - I don't know, "the target he was going for." I can't read his mind, and we can't ask him any more.

He misidentified the root causes of the high frequency of obesity in the US. He laid blame for it on the individual, calling fat people personally stupid, mocking their potential for sexuality, and so on. He attacked a thing that isn't the root cause, and did so in a way that we understand actually hinders people from taking action to improve their health.

Maybe Carlin was a horrid bigot on this topic, and he just wanted to cause anguish to fat people? I like to think not. I like to think that, if he understood the problem better, he'd have attacked the actual causes for what he observed. But, in this case, he didn't. He set up a group of people to be unjustly mocked and bullied, so people who weren't in that group could laugh and feel superior. It was not Carlin's finest hour.