Blindness, Darkness, And the Ability to Cast spell

[Gallant Farstryder]

Here's my beef.

Last night, playing, and a wizard wanted to pump a globe of darkness full of firebrand spell (from Magic of faerun... It's a shapable fireball where you pick out 5ft squares that the spell effects).

My answer was "no. you can't see the targets, they are in darkness"
His response "I saw them 6 seconds ago (1 round) I should be able to place the spell where I like, I have a 26 int.
I respond "No. Regardless of your int, you can not see the targets."
He states "Firebrand is an area of effect spell, targeting 5ft squares, and since aoe spells >can< be cast into darkness, why can't this one?"
I respond "No. You can't see the targets, and there is no way I am letting you pick spots out of darkness where your "allies" are standing"
He gets mad. I stand by my answer still.
Regardless, here are the questions.

One, who is technically right about the firebrand.

Two, say the wizard was casting fireball, how would you adjecate where he could set it off? We play with a board, so he can easily "set the fireball where it won't hurt any party members". I have a problem with omnipotent players looking at the board.

Three, say the wizard is blind. Other than not being able to cast target spells, can they cast AoE, and how would you adjecate where they land? I can see a wizard throwing fireballs... but I am unhappy about them landing in certain spots that the players "just know is there, I have a 26 int dangit!"

 

[Crothian]

Well, even if he can't see the targets, he should be able to determine what squares are effected. If the squares happen to be occupied all the better.

When you use a mat or board or whatever, you must realize that spell casters get to pick their exact space for setting off spells. THis applies to both the good and evil ones.

I've seen houserules that rely on spellcraft for getting the spell targetting properly, but that would outside the core of the rules.

 

[Gallant Farstryder]

My problem is that this negates the worth of darkness, and is stupid besides. There is nothing I have found in the core rules that states that a wizard can shoot spells into darkness.

I have looked over all the material I can find.
On top of that regardless of intelligence shooting fireballs into darkness is hazardous to the health of the other characters. Just because it is possible to "know out of game" where everyone is doesn't mean its correct.

I have considered other things, but I still hesitate to allow anyone to shoot aoe spells into darkness. It is not "a targetable square" due to the darkness, and more importantly a burst must have a center "aimed" for the effect to begin.

Gallant Farstryder, the semi mad dm.

 

[Xarlen]

If you've allready made up your mind, then why are you posting here?

Secondly, yes, a wizard can. He can say 'Explode twenty paces from me!'. Are you saying he can't send a Flaming Sphere rolling into darkness, because he can't see it?

I don't see what the difference is between shooting the pellet into darkness, and firing a bow. Or throwing a grenadelike weapon.

Of course, I wouldn't reason that he could mold the spell around the characters; in a melee, everyone's moving (Which is why archers recieve a -4 to fire into melee).

The next time you use a spell like Darkness, or Silence, get a clear plastic bowl, and put it over that spot on the map. Those inside the bowl are effected. If you want to Move, lift the bowl, move your character, otherwise, you can't see past the bowl.

 

[Dog Faced God]

He still has line of effect, just not line of sight. I would allow him to cast the spell. Make the player turn around in his chair so he can't see the board, count to 20, and explain where the center of the AoE is, and each of the areas affected. Base his accuracy on how well he describes the targets.

 

[LokiDR]

I believe the rules are with your player. He can remember where people were, and fire blindly. If no one has moved, then the side using darkness isn't doing a good job.

Darkness should never be allowed to negate virtually all attacks. Since it stops most melee and virtually all directed missle fire, AoE are all you have left. It should be do-able but dangerous. for choosing specific 5ft squares, I would have had that PC roll his vaulted 26 int, DC of darkness save+5. For each square. If he fries comrades, maybe the other players will keep him from being so recless in the future.

 

[kreynolds]

One, who is technically right about the firebrand.

He was. Firebrand doesn't need line of sight to function. You choose an area and it goes boom.

Two, say the wizard was casting fireball, how would you adjecate where he could set it off?

Anywhere he wants within range. Fireball simply requires that you choose the height and distance the bead will travel before it detonates or strikes a surface early. You don't have to target anything and you don't even have to see the area where you want the fireball to go off.

We play with a board, so he can easily "set the fireball where it won't hurt any party members".

It's called "strategy", though you might try "the 6 second rule" bit if it bugs you that much.

I have a problem with omnipotent players looking at the board.

Then take away the board. But that begs the question, do you think that they have a problem with you counting squares? Think about that real good before you answer.

Three, say the wizard is blind. Other than not being able to cast target spells, can they cast AoE

Absolutely.

and how would you adjecate where they land?

Depends on the specific spell in question. If the blind wizard has can succeed at a Intuit Direction skill check, then he knows what direction he's facing, and in the case of fireball, he casts it just like normal.

It would be different for different spells.

I can see a wizard throwing fireballs... but I am unhappy about them landing in certain spots that the players "just know is there, I have a 26 int dangit!"

Here's the point. A blink of an eye ago, your player saw some bad guys standing over there, but now there's just a big black sphere. Your player obviously isn't stupid, so it's his choice if he wants to throw a fireball into the sphere, which is a perfectly legal move, even for Firebrand. It doesn't have anything to do with high intelligence.

 

[kreynolds]

My problem is that this negates the worth of darkness

Hardly. Darkness is not the end all be all protection spell. It helps wonders against melee attackers, but against a fireball, not so much.

and is stupid besides.

What's stupid? The darkness spell for not blocking a fireball or you for not understanding the rules? You need to chill out a bit here dudel. Your player was in the right, not you.

There is nothing I have found in the core rules that states that a wizard can shoot spells into darkness.

I think you need to read the DMG and PH again.

On top of that regardless of intelligence shooting fireballs into darkness is hazardous to the health of the other characters.

Of course it is, but it's his choice.

Just because it is possible to "know out of game" where everyone is doesn't mean its correct.

That has nothing to do with it. Your player knew they were standing there a second ago, so he knows that it's possible they might still be there. He doesn't have to know they're there to throw a fireball or cast firebrand.

I have considered other things, but I still hesitate to allow anyone to shoot aoe spells into darkness. It is not "a targetable square" due to the darkness, and more importantly a burst must have a center "aimed" for the effect to begin.

Fireball is not a targeted spell, thus your opinion is completely baseless from a rules standpoint. You can house rule it if you like.

 

[Xarlen]

Hiss, hiss. Mrrow.

 

[kreynolds]

Hiss, hiss. Mrrow.

What can I say. It pisses me off to see a DM thrashing their player when that DM isn't any more qualified to be a DM than that very player.

Other than that, I'm good.