D&D 5E Blog Post by Robert J. Schwalb

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Schwalb makes claims about the heart an soul of the game. From the closing paragraph of his blog, which you posted in the OP and with which you expressed agreement:

I believe this game preserves just enough of the customization elements that defined the 3rd and 4th Editions to be recognizable to newer members of the audience, while having reclaimed the heart of the game from the earliest editions and put it back where it belongs.​

That sentence implies that 3E and 4e had abandoned the heart of the game. Stating that "I do not believe there is a right way or a wrong way to play this game" doesn't change the implication.

No, you totally botched your inferences on that paragraph. He said he looked at the TSR games and what they emphasized the most (but not exclusively) , and moved that more to the front and center of this game. That does not mean those things didn't exist in 3e and 4e, just that he feels so many other things were emphasized in 3e & 4e that the result was less emphasis on what he considers the heart of D&D.

None of that says 3e/4e abandoned the heart of D&D. You have to infer other things, based on your own preferences, into what he said to read it that way. He just felt he was putting that TSR-versions heart back to the highest focus for 5e. He moved the emphasis, and does not say or imply anything about abandoned heart in any version of the game.
 
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Jeremy E Grenemyer

Feisty
Supporter
pemerton,

My last post in response to you was too combative in tone. I apologize.

Those who disagree, unsurprisingly, post their disagreements. And then instead of either saying "fair enough", or articulating why Schwalb is right, there is a move to the meta-level, of diagnosing why those who disagree with Schwalb are thin-skinned, or edition warriors, or whatever.
Maybe we’re talking past each other.

If I may: some clarity on my train of thought.

If I say that people have made claims against Schwalb in this thread that he was edition warring, then I am making a true statement. Those claims exist.

It is not true if I say that those who level the edition war claims against him were only disagreeing with him.

This is because leveling the claim of edition war is to speak to intent, whereas to disagree with someone is to speak to the content of their ideas.

It's certainly possible to level the edition war claim against someone and then go on to disagree with that person's ideas, but the act of the former overshadows the presence of the later and calls into question the integrity of the person leveling the accusation.

Why? Because it has already been established that Schwalb's intent was not to edition war, and his responses to comments in his blog post clarify this beyond doubt (though you seem to have missed Schwalb’s repeated attempts to clarify his intent, despite your having read the comments section beneath his blog post).

When I make statements against those who’ve claimed edition warring on the part of Mr. Schwalb, I am not endeavoring to ignore commentary in the form of legitimate disagreement. What I am doing is trying to counter what I believe to be disinformation and ad hominem.

EDIT: I want to be very careful here. I am not implying that you are a liar or that you're out to sow disinformation. Rather, I'm saying the position you (and others) take is, to me, overly aggressive vis-a-vis what Schwalb's intent was, and therefore to what he wrote.

If you don't think Schwalb is right in diagnosing 3E and 4e as having harmed D&D, then why post agreement with him?
Have you considered that one does not have to take sides in order to analyze a piece of writing to determine the author's intent and goals going into the piece?

Have you also considered that when an author states that his or her intent wasn’t to do something like edition warring, he or she actually means what they say, and that this statement has truth value?

Generally speaking, I wonder why it is people are so uneager to give game designers the benefit of the doubt?

If you do, then how can you be shocked that not everyone thinks that that is true?
The manner in which you use words like "shocked" and (earlier in the thread) "disparage" exaggerate your claims and leave an aftertaste of strawman.

For me these words are a turn off. They don't enhance your claims or make them stronger. If you left them out then you'd do better at keeping a reader's attention on the important things you have to say.

I don't think that the "heart of the game" needed rescuing from 4e. (Others can comment on 3E.) Schwalb apparently does. That's a point of disagreement between me and him (and those who agree with him), and I don't see why it's so objectionable that I should articulate it.
When you write it like this, I have no objection.

That and hopefully how you better understand where I'm coming from.
 
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Zardnaar

Legend
Jonathon Tweet has also been engaging in edition warring it seems.

"4. Looking back on two versions of Dungeons & Dragons since the one you designed, how do you see the game evolving in ways you wish you’d thought of? And what elements of your version do you feel stand the test of time?
The classes in 4E are a lot better balanced than the classes in previous editions, and that’s a tremendous improvement. Spellcasters in general and clerics in particular are way too powerful in 3E. Fourth Ed also added the capacity for characters to recover lost hit points on their own, a concept that I launched in Omega World, my Gamma World variant from 2002. That’s a worthy edition to the system. The limit on healing in 4E is a huge boon to high-level play. In previous editions, it was too easy for high-level parties to replenish their hit points magically. I wish that 4E had been envisioned better so that it would have been successful. It’s unfortunate that the edition’s good improvements are largely ignored just because the overall edition was disappointing.
“Fifth Edition” looks like it will be more faithful to the D&D tradition than 4E was, and that’s good to see. It’s still going to be hard for Wizards to win back players, especially since they’re going up against Pathfinder, which is essentially an improved version of 3E.
It’s really heartening to see how many players are committed to Pathfinder. It’s been 14 years since 3E launched, and, in the guise of Pathfinder, it’s still the most popular version of the game today. No previous version of the game system has lasted that long. Our major accomplishment with 3E was giving players a tremendous amount of freedom, and that feature still resonates with players. For 3E, we ditched all sorts of limits: level limits by race, class limits by race, multiclass limits, etc. Players ate it up. With 4E, Wizards strictly limited what sort of characters you could create, and players rejected the system. The system that Monte Cook, Skip Williams, and I put together in 2000 still resonates because it’s the most open-ended version of D&D ever.
In 2013, Pelgrane Press released 13th Age, which Rob Heinsoo and I designed. It’s basically a version of D&D designed to give even more creative control to players and GMs. Mechanically, it’s simpler, faster, and better balanced than 3E, and it puts the players’ inventiveness ahead of the game system. Rob and I prefer RPGs that give players lots of creative authority, and that’s what 13th Age does. "


http://frabjousdave.com/creative-colleagues-jonathan-tweet/

 

Libramarian

Adventurer
But I'm not sure I agree with you that the GM is the most important participant.
Surely in the basic sense that the game can be played without one of the players but not without the GM? I also would say that the quality of the GM influences the quality of the game more than any particular player.

On a different note, could you say more about how the 4e rules help you put pressure on the players?

When I say that the 1e rules help me put pressure on the players, I mean I like how much pressure they put on players independently of me. I was joking with one of my players the other day that my standard DMing expression is not the stereotypical old school DM maniacally laughing, but shrugging like "sorry but that's what the rules say". Yes, you do lose a level just because this monster touched you. Yes, spider venom really is save or die. Yes, casting Identify will knock you out for 24 hours. Yes, Fireball melts treasure. Yes, Raise Dead doesn't work on elves, etc.
The lego analogy is good one that I can relate to! Your distinction between being clever and creative is an interesting one that gives a clear sense where you are coming from and of the key divide between early and more recent editions. And I guess everyone who played early editions of D&D engaged in creative play (because there were quite a few gaps in the rules) and has some sense of nostalgia for that type of gaming.

But I think this type of creativity is highly dependent upon the DM's judgement and whim.
I agree. I think it's important for 'old school' DMing to be 51% in favor of the players. It's not quite enough just to be a neutral referee. When a player comes up with some sort of plan that seems dubious based on my understanding of the fiction I try to assume that it makes sense based on theirs and view it in the most favorable light. I try to reward gumption in itself.

A good example of how early editions were more conducive to creative play, that isn't because of a simple gap in the rules, is the Command spell. Traditionally, Command lets the player choose any single-word command they want, with the DM working out the implications. The 4e Command spell lets the player choose whether their target falls prone or slides a few squares.
On an unrelated note, @Libramarian I am with you on the GM not being there as primarily a source of entertainment for the other players. I think it would do the culture surrounding the game a great deal of good if we started to emphasis the responsibility players have to one another for a quality game experience rather than just depending on the GM to police inconsiderate players (not characters) who work at cross purposes. I expect players to be engaging, thoughtful, and considerate of one another. I also view my role when I GM as a player with slightly different responsibilities. That's part of the reason why I find the implicit suggestion that GMs are required to spend hours outside of gaming preparing setting material disruptive. It does not improve my experience of the game or encourage the sort of play I value at the table. Mileage may of course vary on this point.

In some ways I think I expect less from the players than most DMs, and in some ways more.

I expect them to basically give me the gladiator salute: nos morituri te salutamus (we who are about to die salute you!)

If they do that (be risk-seeking, roll with the punches, don't pout or blame me when something bad happens, don't turtle or ask for meta-game help, wear their emotions on their sleeves), then I don't mind if they treat their characters as avatars, blow off adventure hooks if they don't like the sound of them, make use of metagame knowledge, and generally act like murderhobos. Any role-playing of character history, ideals or flaws is an unexpected bonus.

I definitely agree that the GM shouldn't necessarily be the one to police conflicts amongst the players. Unless they're literally running D&D for children they're babysitting, I suppose.
 

Nebulous

Legend
None of that says 3e/4e abandoned the heart of D&D. You have to infer other things, based on your own preferences, into what he said to read it that way. He just felt he was putting that TSR-versions heart back to the highest focus for 5e. He moved the emphasis, and does not say or imply anything about abandoned heart in any version of the game.

Yeah, he did not say that. I took it at face value as what he said: they retained some customization of 3e and 4e and tried to add the "heart and soul" of earlier D&D. How one defines H&S is probably open to interpretation. From what i've seen of the Basic rules they accomplished what they set out to do. This won't work for everyone obviously, but it has sure worked for me.
 

pemerton

Legend
Surely in the basic sense that the game can be played without one of the players but not without the GM? I also would say that the quality of the GM influences the quality of the game more than any particular player.
In those senses, yes. I took you to be saying something like the GM's pleasure in the game is the most important. If you weren't, I misunderstood. If you were, I still don't think I agree.

A good example of how early editions were more conducive to creative play, that isn't because of a simple gap in the rules, is the Command spell. Traditionally, Command lets the player choose any single-word command they want, with the DM working out the implications. The 4e Command spell lets the player choose whether their target falls prone or slides a few squares.
I think this is a good example. In 4e to get that sort of creativity the players need access to a dominate effect (ie the potential is still there, but not in the Command spell). Using the Command spell creatively in 4e is going to be primarily about exploiting terrain and positioning - I don't think that's nothing, but I do think it is not as open-ended as what dominate permits. (I've sometimes seen it suggested that fictional positioning isn't part of this stuff, but that's not true in my experience - eg using forced movement to impale a beholder on a stalactite (actual play example) is certainly exploiting fictional positioning.)

4e is an odd mixture of tightly-defined combat rules (tighter than classic D&D - Command is just one example) and loose, almost free-descriptor, non-combat rules (much looser than classic D&D in my view). If you are looking for non-tactical creativity in 4e play, I think that is where it is most likely to be found. But even in combat there are options for creativity that are interesting and (I think) distinctive, such as using Intimidate or similar abilities to deal psychic damage.

When a player comes up with some sort of plan that seems dubious based on my understanding of the fiction I try to assume that it makes sense based on theirs and view it in the most favorable light. I try to reward gumption in itself.
I think this is a good technique. I also think it could benefit from more emphasis in a lot of GMing books! 4e makes this easier than classic D&D, I think, because it gives the GM more support for measuring costs and benefits (eg p 42, more systematic set of conditions, etc) - whether that's a pro or con is probably a matter of taste.

On a different note, could you say more about how the 4e rules help you put pressure on the players?
I think I said upthread it has to be through encounter-framing and rationing extended rests (and thereby resource recovery, hence resource availability).

If the GM doesn't frame encounters that will tax the players' resources then there is fiction, but not really much mechanical play - at which point the fiction really needs to be very engaging, because it will be the only source of pressure. In combat, taxing resources means taxing surges, action points and daily powers; out of combat that means taxing surges, action points, daily powers, rituals, and also encounter powers if the non-combat situation will not permit a short rest. You do this by putting something the players (and typically their PCs) want on the "other side" of the situation, and then mechanically framing the situation in such a way that they can't get to the other side without using those resources (eg fighting, persuading someone of something who really has a different opinion, getting somewhere that's hard to get to, etc). This is partly why the reliable encounter-building tools are so helpful - they give you the guidance you need in doing things that, as GM, you have to do (namely, frame encounters of known, typically high, levels of difficulty).

The rationing of rests can be done either via pure metagame/house rule - eg change the period from a day to a week, or do what 13th Age does and require 4 encounters before a rest - or can be snuck into the fiction, which is how I tend to do it: eg in the Underdark it is too stressful to rest unless you have a civilised roof over your head, and then ration the access to civilised roofs. You can then get feedback loops where the players spend resources on skill challenges to try and get access to rest points - I haven't formed a strong view on whether or not this is good for the game, but it is a feature of the game as I play it.

The WotC modules suck, in part, because too many of the encounters aren't hard enough (eg they are on-level, or close too), they have no real fiction driving them (so the players have no motivation to get their PCs to the "other side" of the situation except that the GM has the module open to that page), and there is no serious attention paid to how to ration resource recovery.

Comments/questions very welcome!
 


billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Doesn't read that way to me.

His sentiments have been posted by people here before in various permutations, quite often to the "edition-warring" accusation. You may not see it that way, but I guarantee that some regular ENWorld participants are smarting at it.
 

VengerSatanis

High Priest of Kort'thalis Publishing
"4. Looking back on two versions of Dungeons & Dragons since the one you designed, how do you see the game evolving in ways you wish you’d thought of? And what elements of your version do you feel stand the test of time?

The classes in 4E are a lot better balanced than the classes in previous editions, and that’s a tremendous improvement. Spellcasters in general and clerics in particular are way too powerful in 3E. Fourth Ed also added the capacity for characters to recover lost hit points on their own, a concept that I launched in Omega World, my Gamma World variant from 2002. That’s a worthy edition to the system. The limit on healing in 4E is a huge boon to high-level play. In previous editions, it was too easy for high-level parties to replenish their hit points magically. I wish that 4E had been envisioned better so that it would have been successful. It’s unfortunate that the edition’s good improvements are largely ignored just because the overall edition was disappointing.

“Fifth Edition” looks like it will be more faithful to the D&D tradition than 4E was, and that’s good to see. It’s still going to be hard for Wizards to win back players, especially since they’re going up against Pathfinder, which is essentially an improved version of 3E.

It’s really heartening to see how many players are committed to Pathfinder. It’s been 14 years since 3E launched, and, in the guise of Pathfinder, it’s still the most popular version of the game today. No previous version of the game system has lasted that long. Our major accomplishment with 3E was giving players a tremendous amount of freedom, and that feature still resonates with players. For 3E, we ditched all sorts of limits: level limits by race, class limits by race, multiclass limits, etc. Players ate it up. With 4E, Wizards strictly limited what sort of characters you could create, and players rejected the system. The system that Monte Cook, Skip Williams, and I put together in 2000 still resonates because it’s the most open-ended version of D&D ever.

In 2013, Pelgrane Press released 13th Age, which Rob Heinsoo and I designed. It’s basically a version of D&D designed to give even more creative control to players and GMs. Mechanically, it’s simpler, faster, and better balanced than 3E, and it puts the players’ inventiveness ahead of the game system. Rob and I prefer RPGs that give players lots of creative authority, and that’s what 13th Age does. "


http://frabjousdave.com/creative-colleagues-jonathan-tweet/


Nice.

VS
 

Steel_Wind

Legend
His sentiments have been posted by people here before in various permutations, quite often to the "edition-warring" accusation. You may not see it that way, but I guarantee that some regular ENWorld participants are smarting at it.

I will choose to break my long held silence on ENWorld and decloak to respond to this.

Without trying to define, delimit or otherwise declare what is and isn't "Edition Warring", I can confidently say that the importance attached to activities which fall under that definition -- whatever it is -- is of importance to certain Message Boards and discussion Forums. It has no application, concern, or any merit in describing posts, blogs or communications posted outside of those particular haunts. They are "local forum rules", not rules of general application.

Jonathan Tweet is a co-Creator of 3rd Edition. I would fully expect him to prefer his creation in any cross-comparative analysis of game systems. Indeed, I would be a little disturbed if he didn't. And if the reporting of such comments here amounts to "Edition Warring" then ... whatever. Mods will respond however they care to (and to be clear, they did not in this case).

Whether or not Tweet's comments, or Schwalb's, Cook's, Bulmahn's, or Merle's when engaged in comparative analysis:

i) amount to "Edition Warring"; or
ii) merely engage in a critical comparative analysis that blurs the lines in a fashion which typically leads to a "hot" Edition War thread if posted by others on ENWorld,

is neither here nor there to me. I put it to you that it should be neither here nor there to you, too.

These game designers are people and they get to say what they want. The amount of censorship that could be exerted under this guise (once again, to be clear, ENWorld Mods did not do so in this case) would sterilize virtually all discussions and debate. That serves no real -- or at least valid -- purpose.

It's a fine line with blurred edges applied in an imperfect environment in real time. Inconsistency and variations are not merely expected under such conditions; rather, they are a moral certainty.

I'm sure we'll survive, come what may.
 
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