D&D 5E Blog Post by Robert J. Schwalb

Hussar

Legend
I'm not really sure how you can view Tweet's comments as terribly edition warring. I mean, he's saying largely what 4e fans have been saying all the way along. 4e has some great innovations to add to the D&D family of rules, but, it had a very unfortunate presentation and reception. 3e has thrived through Pathfinder is something that can't really be disputed can it?

About the only point I might disagree with is the "With 4E, Wizards strictly limited what sort of characters you could create" line. With, what, over thirty classes and I have no idea how many playable races, I don't think you can claim any sort of "strict" limits on what can be played. At least, not now. At release? Sure, I'll buy that. But, now? Naw, if you can envision it, you can build it in 4e.

Funnily enough, Basic D&D is FAR more restrictive than 3e or 4e and is getting very big thumbs up from nearly everyone. So, I don't think restrictive class structures, on its own, are what cause such strong reactions from players.
 

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MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
About the only point I might disagree with is the "With 4E, Wizards strictly limited what sort of characters you could create" line. With, what, over thirty classes and I have no idea how many playable races, I don't think you can claim any sort of "strict" limits on what can be played. At least, not now. At release? Sure, I'll buy that. But, now? Naw, if you can envision it, you can build it in 4e.
There are plenty of characters that cannot be made in 4e, many non-combat PCs, all-utility dumb sorcerers, non-lethal reluctant combatants, zero-damage healers who can heal with their own blood and it provides no mechanical support for things like perform, craft, etc.

Funnily enough, Basic D&D is FAR more restrictive than 3e or 4e and is getting very big thumbs up from nearly everyone. So, I don't think restrictive class structures, on its own, are what cause such strong reactions from players.

Well I like both 3e and 4e, and the restrictive class structure is my biggest grief with the system. Hope the phb provides enough flexibility in the hands of the player or will be a no sell for me.
 

dd.stevenson

Super KY
Without trying to define, delimit or otherwise declare what is and isn't "Edition Warring", I can confidently say that the importance attached to activities which fall under that definition -- whatever it is -- is of importance to certain Message Boards and discussion Forums. It has no application, concern, or any merit in describing posts, blogs or communications posted outside of those particular haunts. They are "local forum rules", not rules of general application.
Holy god, yes.

Edition warring is a "low crime" specifically enabled by the comment/counter-comment discussion format. It's not a relevant term outside that context.
 
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Hussar

Legend
There are plenty of characters that cannot be made in 4e, many non-combat PCs, all-utility dumb sorcerers, non-lethal reluctant combatants, zero-damage healers who can heal with their own blood and it provides no mechanical support for things like perform, craft, etc.



Well I like both 3e and 4e, and the restrictive class structure is my biggest grief with the system. Hope the phb provides enough flexibility in the hands of the player or will be a no sell for me.

Meh, the character restrictions thing has been done to death and almost always results in "I cannot write fighter in my Class entry, so I can't make my character. Or characters that are so bizarrely niche that they only exist in theorycraft.
 

Hussar

Legend
Holy god, yes.

Edition warring is a "low crime" specifically enabled by the comment/counter-comment discussion format. It's not a relevant term outside that context.

I'm not sure I agree with that. Lots of the 4e marketing was edition war salvos. And certainly worked to touch off many of the edition war skirmishes. Never minding blog posts on both sides which certainly fanned the flames.

It remains one of the most unfortunate reasons for the rejection of 4e. Had they handled the marketing much better, 4e would not have met such strong opposition. I'd even go so far as to say had they kept Paizo on board with an OGL and put muzzles on many of the Wotc devs, we'd probably be looking at 4.5e right now.
 

JamesonCourage

Adventurer
Meh, the character restrictions thing has been done to death and almost always results in "I cannot write fighter in my Class entry, so I can't make my character. Or characters that are so bizarrely niche that they only exist in theorycraft.
As someone who created my own RPG (that's point-buy and not class-based), I gotta disagree. But the class restriction applies to all versions of D&D. My brother asked me to build a character for his 3.5 game recently, and it took me days and days to feel anything resembling inspired (and I ran 3.5 for years, and used it as a basis for my RPG). In the end, I had to ditch a lot of my ideas because even basic things in my RPG weren't doable.

Again, just pointing out that it's not 4e only that I feel this way about. And, right now, it's my biggest complaint about Basic 5e. Way, way too restrictive for me.
 

pemerton

Legend
About the only point I might disagree with is the "With 4E, Wizards strictly limited what sort of characters you could create" line. With, what, over thirty classes and I have no idea how many playable races, I don't think you can claim any sort of "strict" limits on what can be played. At least, not now.
Agreed.

There are plenty of characters that cannot be made in 4e, many non-combat PCs, all-utility dumb sorcerers, non-lethal reluctant combatants, zero-damage healers who can heal with their own blood and it provides no mechanical support for things like perform, craft, etc.
Some of these claims aren't true, in the sense that I have experiences that refute them, or can imagine such experiences.

For instance, I know there is mechanical support for crafting and performance because I have resolved crafting attempts, and performances, in my game, using the mechanics. They're not the same as 3E's skill mechanics, but that is not a point about concept: many RPGs don't resolve crafting or performance in the same mechanical fashion as 3E does.

Given that it is possible to declare any 0 hp result as unconsciousness rather than death, it also supports non-lethal combatants. And it can support reluctant combatants quite easily - one of the PCs in my game is primarily a non-combatant (invoker/wizard Divine Philosopher Devil's Pawn Sage of Ages). I think your complaint here is mostly that you can't stack up non-lethal damage that makes it hard for other combatants to kill the target, but that is not a point about concept, that is a point about a particular wonky implementation of damage rules in 3E that, as far as I know, has no parallel in other FRPGs and certainly has no verisimilitude to it.

I think you can also build a zero-damage clerical healer fairly easily, although I'm not sure what the "heal with their own blood" constraint refers to: I don't know off the top of my head if clerics have access to surge-spending healing powers like those of paladins, although such powers are certainly accessible via magic items. (And could be easily implemented as divine boons rather than items in a literal sense.)

All utility dumb sorcerers I will give you.
 

The base math of the game assumes every character will have three good stats: a primary to-hit stat, a secondary stat based on their build, and a third stat for their last defence.

No it doesn't. If you look at the base math of the game you only get 2 improvements per stat boost. It assumes you can not have three good stats.

The game assumes an 18 in their primary stat and 20s are common as well,

Nope. The game math was balanced round a 16 in your primary stat. It's just that players more frequently go for 18s or even 20s.

And it assumes you'll out every stat boost into that same state and your secondary stat.

Once again, nope. It assumes you'll put your primary boost into your primary stat. In other words you get better at what you spend a lot of time doing. Splitting your secondary boosts works.

All characters are optimized for one of four combat roles.

Because a two weapon ranger does exactly the same thing as a sorcerer. Riiiight.

All characters can innately participate in combat and be effective.

This, at least, is true.

4e characters are built very much like optimized 3e characters who focus on a single role and put all their skill ranks in the same skills every level and always take combat options.

Nope. 4e characters are built like non-min/maxed 3e characters. You don't worry about long feat chains, unlike a min/maxing 3e fighter. You don't have an incredibly long spell book and the ability to do almost everything, unlike a 3e wizard or cleric, and don't trawl the bestiary, unlike the 3e Druid. All your skills rather than just your hyper-specialised few grow as you level.

Your claim you focus on a single role is in direct contradiction to the rulebooks - and to effective play. For instance my last Warlord was simultaneously able to restore hit points, able to tank one flank unsupported (as he frequently needed to do) and when swearing at the monsters he, as a Bravura Warlord sometimes used to top the DPR lists with Brash Assault and Provoke Overextension handing out free attacks on his turn (although not when tanking).

So once again false.

The base of 4e is a minimum level of optimization. "You need to be <this> optimized to ride 4th edition."

Where the minimum height requirement is one a teenage halfling or gnome would pass. "Work out what you want to do. Pick a class that fits it. It has a primary stat. That should be your best. Then build to whatever theme you chose."

Jonathon Tweet has also been engaging in edition warring it seems.

I see no edition warring there. He says what he thinks worked and that he found it disappointing. Which is fair enough - there were a lot of bits of 4E I find disappointing. He's as allowed to not like it as I am to not like his version of D&D. He's also talking about D&D Tradition rather than D&D itself. Which is ultimately a huge difference. If you claim that 4E is not D&D you are objectively wrong and being offensive at the same time. If you're talking about D&D Tradition then who cares? Some people, evidently. But D&D Tradition is not the same as D&D.

That was a fair and measured piece from someone who does not especially like 4E but recognises it has good points. There is nothing wrong with that. He's not trying to pass off untruth as fact, and he's not trying to kick 4E out of the D&D family.

Edit: There was also the line about 4E limiting the characters you could play. He was IMO incorrect there - but one of 4E's core problems was that it wasn't obvious about how you did things. IME 4E limits characters less than 3E - but you need more system mastery to play offbeat characters in 4E rather than being restricted by being punished by the game rules.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
For instance, I know there is mechanical support for crafting and performance because I have resolved crafting attempts, and performances, in my game, using the mechanics. They're not the same as 3E's skill mechanics, but that is not a point about concept: many RPGs don't resolve crafting or performance in the same mechanical fashion as 3E does.
This one I give you. It doesn't give room to explicitly invest into being a good crafter or performer though.

Given that it is possible to declare any 0 hp result as unconsciousness rather than death, it also supports non-lethal combatants. And it can support reluctant combatants quite easily - one of the PCs in my game is primarily a non-combatant (invoker/wizard Divine Philosopher Devil's Pawn Sage of Ages). I think your complaint here is mostly that you can't stack up non-lethal damage that makes it hard for other combatants to kill the target, but that is not a point about concept, that is a point about a particular wonky implementation of damage rules in 3E that, as far as I know, has no parallel in other FRPGs and certainly has no verisimilitude to it.

This goes as back as 2E at least, I don't really have seen a first edition DMG to know if it is there too, but non-lethal damage goes at least that far. And this isn't just non-lethal damage, but about stuff that outright is meant to subdue -nets, lassos, mancatchers-

I think you can also build a zero-damage clerical healer fairly easily, although I'm not sure what the "heal with their own blood" constraint refers to: I don't know off the top of my head if clerics have access to surge-spending healing powers like those of paladins, although such powers are certainly accessible via magic items. (And could be easily implemented as divine boons rather than items in a literal sense.)

I give in a little in the heal with your blood bit, that is kinda obscure and not in core though not 3rd party, and is not for everyone because it is truly self sacrificing and not a trivial expenditure -It would take days or weeks for you to recover from doing it-. However I would want to see a true non-damaging cleric, it isn't as easy as it sounds, while it is possible to neuter your second at-will, power selection of dailies and encounters is difficult. (Trust me, I've tried and given up )
 

This one I give you. It doesn't give room to explicitly invest into being a good crafter or performer though.

Skill Focus - which you may be able to stack, I forget.

So as much room or more than BD&D/1/2E and more than 5E right now.

This goes as back as 2E at least, I don't really have seen a first edition DMG to know if it is there too, but non-lethal damage goes at least that far. And this isn't just non-lethal damage, but about stuff that outright is meant to subdue -nets, lassos, mancatchers-

5E works identically to 4E in this regard, FWIW. So I take it you object to 5E equally here?
 

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