D&D 5E Bonus action spell and reaction on your same turn

[ad_hoc]

They didn't have to cast Hellish Rebuke.

It is a choice. If they choose to cast a leveled spell then they cannot also case a Bonus Action spell.

 

[Umbran]

They didn't have to cast Hellish Rebuke.

It is a choice. If they choose to cast a leveled spell then they cannot also case a Bonus Action spell.

Yeah. We know what the rule is. We're discussing why it is and what possible abuses are there if the rule is different.

 

[NotAYakk]

The bonus action casting rules are a bit of a hack, honestly.

They look like an attempt to add in a general rule -- "no 2 leveled spells in a turn" -- but make it in the bonus action rules instead of in the standard rules.

I mean, bonus action spells are supposed to be easier to cast. But not so much easier to cast that you can do them and a leveled spell as your action.

However, if you cast action spell, by RAW you can counter the counterspell someone cast at it. But you cannot with a bonus action spell. This doesn't make all that much sense, really.

In addition, the "I cast a spell", "I counterspell", "I counter the counterspell" is a bit of a ridiculous pattern in game. It turns counterspell into a slot tax.

To that end, I'd replace the overly complex bonus action spellcasting rules with "you cannot cast two leveled spells in the same turn" which is what I swear 90% of people pretend or think it says anyhow. (This also makes Fighter 2 not a huge boost to high level spellcasters, which I think is a good thing.)

Now, "I cast a spell", "I counterspell" doesn't get "and I counter the counterspell".

 

[Shiroiken]

I'm personally fine with it, for one primary reason: everything is taking place at the same time. Rounds and turns are simply a game construct to organize this chaos. Having the reaction occur on your turn vs after your turn is meaningless when you realize that everything is taking place in 6 seconds. The balance factor for bonus action spells is limiting your regular action spells. So long as you only take 1 reaction between the start of your turn and the start of your next turn, the balance should be perfectly fine.

The problem may not lie in this particular combination, but in precedent of allowing a spellcaster to get three spells off in the same round, especially if the player finds a set of spells that makes use of some synchronicity we haven't considered because you nomally can't do that.

I'm assuming you mean turn, not round. A caster can get off 3 spells in a round without any issue whatsoever.

 

[FrogReaver]

It's what I've been thinking about.

(Now before we begin, a spellcaster absolutely can have 3 spells go off in a round. Had the warlock been away from the zombie, cast hex and blasted it, then the zombie moved it on its turn, attack the warlock, the warlock fiendish rebukes, that's 3 spells in a round and it's perfectly ok by the rules. It's 3 spells in a turn that is the issue.)

The "no bonus spell + action spell" is a way to limit spellcaster's "volume" - how many spells they can cast at once. It would be trivial to do "bonus spell + normal spell" all the time.

You can do it with an action surge (because that's an exception), and this is not trivial - you have to spend a resource that you can't get again until you short rest, and you have had to take the fighter class to boot to get the ability.

So the question is, can you trivially trigger a reaction on your turn so you can weaponize it? Sure you can move up to an enemy and back away, but the enemy has 1: to hit you, 2: if it hits you, you are taking damage, 3: the enemy has to decide to attack you - they may already have spent their reaction, or may decide they don't like what you are selling.

Probably not particularly efficient but polymorph frog + powerword kill. Potentially an instant kill on any enemy in a single round.

 

[Charlaquin]

Theoretically no, see here. The limitation is during your turn, which is unfortunate if you use your reaction to cast a non-cantrip spell during your turn.

That’s correct, but personally I’d allow it. Seems like a spirit of the rule over the letter of the rule situation to me.

 

[toucanbuzz]

Can they still cast hex?

This type of conversation was raised earlier this year, might get some insight from this discussion.

RAW: as originally written, yes. As clarified in Sage Advice 2019, probably not because they clarified intent was that any spell cast before the bonus action spell had to be a cantrip. In prior editions, 3 leveled spells could be cast on your turn: swift (bonus), immediate (reaction), and your action. 5E changed that. While there are times when this rule can be bent (e.g. multi-class fighter with Action Surge), the bending should be at a cost (having to dip 2 levels into fighter).

RAI: there shouldn't be competing standards. I get hit before I cast the bonus action spell, thus triggering my reaction, and I can cast 2 leveled spells + 1 cantrip. But if I don't get hit, I can't cast 2 leveled spells + 1 cantrip. It's not consistent because, no matter what triggers the reaction, you're still casting.

Solution: makers didn't anticipate everything. The primary rule, not perfectly written, seems by 2019 wording in errata that it was intended that only 1 leveled spell and 1 cantrip be possible in a turn, absent a sorcerer special ability, action surge, etc. that let's you violate this rule. Thus, @NotAYakk's proposal of "you cannot cast 2 leveled spells in your turn" seems a simple resolution. Otherwise, you have competing standards of sometimes I can, sometimes I cannot.

 

[Charlaquin]

Yeah. We know what the rule is. We're discussing why it is and what possible abuses are there if the rule is different.

I believe @doctorbadwolf ’s position is that there aren’t any possible abuses if the rule is different.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I believe @doctorbadwolf ’s position is that there aren’t any possible abuses if the rule is different.

Yep.

Allowing Ready (Spell) + BA spell probably has a ton, but that can easily be left out.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

I recommend ignoring the RAW on this. While not getting to use a Hellish Rebuke when you otherwise could is a pretty low stakes reaction spell situation, not getting to use a Feather Fall or Absorb Elements when needed, because of a rules technicality that does not seem to really be part of design intent, seems like a pretty harsh adherence to rules that usually won't make your game more fun or serve any particular purpose.

And even if you hate the ability of a character to counterspell a counterspell of their spell, embracing a rule that allows it for an action spell but not a bonus action spell does not solve the "problem", it just makes it needlessly confusing.