Boost Combat Expertise with Shields

[Evilhalfling]

how would you apply this to combat expertise?
i see combat expertise as one of those feats that is an improvement of an existing ability (like improved disarm/trip/etc), its basically "improved fighting defensively". Although they are supposed to stack... which doesnt quitre fit my vision.

my original thought was to give shield users a flat bonus to AC when using combat expertise
but i really feel that someone trained to use a shield should be very hard to hit if they put extra effort into it (sacraficing effort toward attacking)

I see hiding behind a shield as different from the active defense provide by combat expertise. You could rule that using any amount of CE would give a +1 bonus, while taking a -4 or more(??) to hit would provide an addtional +1 dodge bonus. But this is somewhat arbitrary.

i'm thinking of roman/greek warfare where shields were the major part of a persons defense
(hopefully this is true and not a creation of hollywood)

From all the historical books I have read they were very important. There has to be a reason they were so commonly used all across history, and by almost every culture.

It seems like shields should be more effective, and not just for the few that took CE.

 

[Felnar]

From all the historical books I have read they were very important. There has to be a reason they were so commonly used all across history, and by almost every culture.

It seems like shields should be more effective, and not just for the few that took CE.

the reason they were so popular is because the are cheap&easy to make and maintain, and they provided great protection

i agree they should be more effective, but dont want to go too far, and wanted them to be more effective for those trained in defense

perhaps the mechanic for the exotic "broadblade shortsword" from Complete Adventure would work, where if you shift at least 2 points with CE, you get a +2 dodge bonus to AC

anything would help really
maybe a super bonus against ranged attacks... hmm...

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

The problem with that analysis is that the Expertising character is unhittable to a character that was completely min/maxed to have the highest attack bonus, including choosing a Monster Manual race with +4 Strength. All the tank has to do is buy the standard defensive items and have 12 Dex (he doesn't even need the Tower Shield to be unhittable with the 2-for-1 Expertise at level 5). And even if he doesn't buy the magic items I assumed, he can still be unhittable *without a single magic item* to the +16 to hit orc! This is bad--seriously bad. It means that if you take one feat and don't even buy magic, just the full plate and tower shield, you're not going to get hit by any other character's normal attacks, period.

Let's revisit this analysis again because there are a few important things to consider:

1. This analysis is located at level 5--the most favorable point possible for the shield and combat expertise wielder. Locate the analysis at level 12, for instance, and the character will have a lot more trouble being unhittable. A 12th level fighter (since you are objecting to orcs, how about a standard array human fighter) might expect to have an 18 strength (20 with gauntlets of ogre power), a +1 sword, and greater weapon focus. So, he starts off at +20 to hit without any buffs (which he will most likely have--NPCs are only worth their CR if they are working together in a party that supports each other). In order to get an AC of 40, even with this rule, the character needs either a +3 tower shield and +3 fullplate or +4 heavy shield and +4 fullplate or some combination a ring of protection and an amulet of natural armor.

Of course, a 12th level fighter IS going to have those alternate tactics like disarming, sundering or grappling, so even then, it's not the best comparison. A cloud giant (CR 11) has an attack bonus of +22 (and Improved Bull Rush and Improved Overrun to put the fighter on his back or push him off a cliff). A CR 13 storm giant has +26 to hit (and Improved Sunder and Improved Bull Rush) as well as some nifty spell like abilities. A CR 12 displacer beast pack lord is +25 to hit with its tentacles. A CR 11 Dire wereboar hill giant is +29 to hit with his greatclub (and has Improved Bull Rush and Improved Sunder). A dire tiger is +20 to hit at only CR 8. A mature adult white dragon is also CR 12 and attacks at +27.

Did I cherry pick the monsters with good attack bonuses. Sure. But most of the other monsters have something else to do. A CR 11 Hezrou, for instance, couldn't hit the fighter but he doesn't need to. He has Chaos Hammer and Unholy Blight at will (along with a 3/day blasphemy that, if he has any allies, can be relied upon to destroy any 11th or 12th level party, but using blasphemy like that is cheating). A twelve headed hydra is CR 11 and only +17. But it has fast healing 22 and 12 attacks per round. So, the unhittable fighter can expect to get hit every couple rounds and, unless he hits two or three times per round himself, isn't going to inflict any lasting harm on the hydra. (A CR 12 eleven headed pyro or cryo hydra will just breathe on the fighter and toast him). Similarly, a Kolyarut is CR 12 but has enervation and vampiric touch at will and hold monster 1/day. A dread wraith is also in that CR range but makes incorporeal touch attacks. The point is that, by CR 12, any monster who is just a beatstick is going to have a higher attack bonus than the 12th level fighter can expect to get AND may have good options in addition to that. (Note that pretty much all the giants and the wereboar have Improved Sunder and the dragon has its (unimpressive--it's a white dragon) breath weapon).

The analysis has demonstrated that it can fairly easily render a character unhittable at level 5 (if he sacrifices most of his offense for it) but that doesn't last to the higher levels.

2. The character is only just barely unhittable with the magic items AND the tower shield AND 2 for 1 Combat Expertise while fighting defensively. The orc is +16 to attack. The other character is: AC 38 (10+9 armor +5 shield, +1 dex, +10 Combat Expertise, +2 fighting defensively). Without the tower shield, he's down to AC 36 maximum, and without the magic items or the tower shield (which you suggest is unhittable) he's down to AC 34 maximum which is hittable on an 18. And that's still fighting defensively along with the full combat expertise.

3. While the orc does represent the high attack point for a CR 5 NPC's, he does not represent the high point for creatures that a level 5 fighter can expect to face in combat (though I'll admit he is pretty close absent advanced or class leveled monsters, his attack bonus is better than any CR 5 in the Monster Manual). Fighter 5s have to be prepared to face a variety of creatures with CRs as high as 7 or 8. Dire bears anyone?

4. You are all vastly underestimating the importance of having an actual offense. The defensively oriented fighter has to be able to mount an effective offense if his defensive prowess is not simply to mean that he is the last PC to be killed. The usual tactic for monsters (or for PCs) when faced with an unhittable opponent who does not present a significant offensive threat (and when he's taking -8 or -10 to hit, the fighter won't qualify as a signficant offensive threat) is, absent any special manuevers (grapple, disarm, sunder, etc) to simply ignore him and go after the characters who are a threat. So the fighter doesn't take any damage. That does nothing to help the wizard, rogue or cleric, when the orc barbarian decides to take out his frustration on them. And without their support, the fighter is going to be in a world of hurt.

In the end, it may well be that the option is overpowered. But it's not as dramatically or as obviously overpowered as people seem to be suggesting. And a +2 bonus when shifting 2 points of attack to defense with Combat Expertise would probably end up fairly balanced. (As well as offering characters who don't get animated shields and two-handed weapons a benefit).

 

[Rystil Arden]

2. The character is only just barely unhittable with the magic items AND the tower shield AND 2 for 1 Combat Expertise while fighting defensively. The orc is +16 to attack. The other character is: AC 38 (10+9 armor +5 shield, +1 dex, +10 Combat Expertise, +2 fighting defensively). Without the tower shield, he's down to AC 36 maximum, and without the magic items or the tower shield (which you suggest is unhittable) he's down to AC 34 maximum which is hittable on an 18. And that's still fighting defensively along with the full combat expertise.

I never said that it was unhittable without either tower shield or magic--I said that if he has the tower shield, full plate, and no magic at all, the proposed 2-for-1 CE makes him unhittable if he has 5 ranks in Tumble. And it does, barely, at AC 36. Even a little bit of magic just cements that more (or replaces the Tumble if you like).

4. You are all vastly underestimating the importance of having an actual offense. The defensively oriented fighter has to be able to mount an effective offense if his defensive prowess is not simply to mean that he is the last PC to be killed. The usual tactic for monsters (or for PCs) when faced with an unhittable opponent who does not present a significant offensive threat (and when he's taking -8 or -10 to hit, the fighter won't qualify as a signficant offensive threat) is, absent any special manuevers (grapple, disarm, sunder, etc) to simply ignore him and go after the characters who are a threat. So the fighter doesn't take any damage. That does nothing to help the wizard, rogue or cleric, when the orc barbarian decides to take out his frustration on them. And without their support, the fighter is going to be in a world of hurt.

We aren't talking about the offense, though, we're talking about defense. There will often be ways to place himself strategically in a way to protect the other characters, particularly in dungeons.

And want to know the scariest thing? This guy isn't really sacrificing offense at all (except insomuch as he isn't using a two-handed weapon) unless he wants to be. He can take one feat and give himself the choice of whether or not to be unhittable or keep his attack bonus, without even spending significant magical resources.

3. While the orc does represent the high attack point for a CR 5 NPC's, he does not represent the high point for creatures that a level 5 fighter can expect to face in combat (though I'll admit he is pretty close absent advanced or class leveled monsters, his attack bonus is better than any CR 5 in the Monster Manual). Fighter 5s have to be prepared to face a variety of creatures with CRs as high as 7 or 8. Dire bears anyone?

Depending on the campaign, you probably won't see too many single critters with CR too much above the party's level, and if you do, the casters tend to have a field day. Against a group of enemies of approximate CR equal to that of the party, the proposed 2-for-1 CE basically makes the tank invincible. It would get even worse with Improved Combat Expertise thrown in the mix.

 

[Stalker0]

Keep in mind something else, combat expertise isn't really utilizing your shield and armor better than normal, its using your brain to anticipate moves.

Why do I say this? Because combat expertise adds to the TOUCH ac, which armor and shields have no part of.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Rystil, I think you have a different definition of "invincible" than I do. My defnition definition involves actually defeating your enemies rather than avoiding being killed by their melee abilities.

Besides, turtling up like in your examples would not make a character unhittable as much as it would suggest "please, sunder this honkin' big shield that's blocking your attacks!"

But that aside, as a comment on the proposed super bonus vs. missile weapons, I'd suggest adding a deflect arrows feat that works with a shield instead. That would be plenty good enough as a bonus against missile weapons and wouldn't put too many benefits in one feat.

Also, if you do go with this option, I would recommend against allowing Improved Combat Expertise to work with it.

 

[Enkhidu]

What if you were to:

1. Allow a 2 for 1 CE exchange.
2. Make the "bonus" AC a shield bonus (that stacks with other shield bonuses), not a dodge bonus.
3. Cap the maximum shield bonus AC from the feat at +1 through +4 based on shield size (buckler, small, large, and tower respectively).

You'd have to tweak the wording just right, but I think it would be a good middle ground.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Rystil, I think you have a different definition of "invincible" than I do. My defnition definition involves actually defeating your enemies rather than avoiding being killed by their melee abilities.

Besides, turtling up like in your examples would not make a character unhittable as much as it would suggest "please, sunder this honkin' big shield that's blocking your attacks!"

But that aside, as a comment on the proposed super bonus vs. missile weapons, I'd suggest adding a deflect arrows feat that works with a shield instead. That would be plenty good enough as a bonus against missile weapons and wouldn't put too many benefits in one feat.

Also, if you do go with this option, I would recommend against allowing Improved Combat Expertise to work with it.

Basically, the fighter is clearly not completely invincible, but they have gained an unacceptably high AC (which I define as an AC unhittable save on a 20 for any NPC of their CR, even a totally min/maxed one) for a very low opportunity cost (they spent one feat to get a good feat, they bought an armour that's good anyway, and at most they bought a Tower Shield that they won't be using other times).

I do like your idea for Deflect Arrows with shield though.

My suggestion to at least tame this a little would be to replace Improved Combat Expertise in your game with a new feat called Canny Shield Defense, which, in line with Enkhidu's suggestion gives an unnamed bonus to your Shield Bonus (not Dodge) that is capped by 1 for bucklers and light shields, 2 for heavy, 4 for tower. Also, make the fighter take an additional -2 to hit to activate this. At least then they've paid for it with a relatively higher opportunity cost

 

[Scion]

There is a class with good BAB and tumble as a class skill? Where are they located?


Overall though, I would have to say that dropping your offensive potential to near 0 while making your defensive potential very good vs physical attacks is a bad way to go in d&d most of the time.

After all, you are in a party.. if you are not doing anything effective then it is easy enough to simply ignore you and go for someone more hitable.

A tanks job is to be able to take damage and be enough of a nuisance to keep the bad guys attention. If you are unable to hit anything but on a 20 and all of your money went into defensive equipment then your measily damage every minute or two is going to be ignored by everyone.

Let alone if someone tucks a tanglefoot bag on you or something.


If Rystils example is the most broken point that there is then it looks like shield wearers need 'more' help than just this simple boost. But I think that it clearly shows that allowing such a change would not be overpowering in the least.

If you trade in the ability to hurt your enemy for being highly resistant to a certain type of attack you are in major trouble. Most creatures have some way around it whether by alternate damage dealing or simple recovery (even minor healing spells now and then will keep up with the damage, regeneration, fast healing) or maybe they will have something like displacement for a miss chance.. you and your 5% chance to hit with almost no damage and then a 50% chance of that being negated.. ouch.. ;/

 

[Rystil Arden]

There is a class with good BAB and tumble as a class skill? Where are they located?


Overall though, I would have to say that dropping your offensive potential to near 0 while making your defensive potential very good vs physical attacks is a bad way to go in d&d most of the time.

After all, you are in a party.. if you are not doing anything effective then it is easy enough to simply ignore you and go for someone more hitable.

A tanks job is to be able to take damage and be enough of a nuisance to keep the bad guys attention. If you are unable to hit anything but on a 20 and all of your money went into defensive equipment then your measily damage every minute or two is going to be ignored by everyone.

Let alone if someone tucks a tanglefoot bag on you or something.


If Rystils example is the most broken point that there is then it looks like shield wearers need 'more' help than just this simple boost. But I think that it clearly shows that allowing such a change would not be overpowering in the least.

If you trade in the ability to hurt your enemy for being highly resistant to a certain type of attack you are in major trouble. Most creatures have some way around it whether by alternate damage dealing or simple recovery (even minor healing spells now and then will keep up with the damage, regeneration, fast healing) or maybe they will have something like displacement for a miss chance.. you and your 5% chance to hit with almost no damage and then a 50% chance of that being negated.. ouch.. ;/

Who ever said that the Expertising guy can only hit on a 20? That's where you are wrong--the problem with this build is that you can set Expertise at the point where it will make you unhittable to them save on a 20 while still being able to hit them much more of the time. You're not going to be fighting an Orc Half-Dragon Barbarian all of the time. Let's say you are fighting a reasonable yet powerful brawn opponent--a Human Fighter with Weapon Focus, 16 Strength, and a +1 Two-Handed Weapon, total of +10 to hit. Well, then you only need 30 AC. Expertise for 4 with no Fighting Defensively? Wham! You have 30 AC and can only be hit on a 20. Now I've only assigned a 12 to Dex for the Expertise guy, so let's say he has 14 Strength (probably an underestimate), Weapon Focus, and a Masterwork Weapon. After Expertising for 4, your attack bonus is +5. The enemy is going to have AC somewhere around 20 (he's a brawn guy with a two-handed weapon), so you're going to hit him much more than he will hit you.

Claiming that the Expertise guy will only hit on a 20 is a strawman