Boost Combat Expertise with Shields

[Garboshnik]

I have to agree with Rystil here. Improved Combat Expertise can be extremely useful under a number of circumstances such as when an enemy can't get past you or can't be expected to tell that you're fighting defensively. Plus, if they do start ignoring you there is always the option of dropping Expertise for a round to deal some damage.

Having a 2 for 1 bonus would make ICE unworkable. If you capped it at -5 hit/+10 AC, it might not wreck your game at higher levels but it could certainly lead to some problems. It doesn't even require much of a commitment: Combat Expertise is a useful feat even for a two-hander and that same two-hander could always carry a shield around on his back if he ever wanted to get the 2 for 1 bonus. Likewise, the shield user could easily switch to a two-handed weapon if he ever wanted to and not really be disadvantaged.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

You can keep saying it all you want, but it is still only true:
A. at level 5
B. against unbuffed CR 5 opponents
C. If the character uses a tower shield
D. If the character takes a highly improbably class combination to get 5 ranks of tumble while wearing fullplate.

Any character in that situations is:
1. Going to want to have defensive magic items because they enable him to have a decent defense while being something other than a walking post. (Ooh, I can hit AC 14 on a roll of 15 and do 1d8+5 points of damage or so. Great, now you're competing with an unbuffed first level wizard's melee offensive potential).
2. Committed to defense. He carries a tower shield which is heavy enough that you don't carrry one unless you're going to use it regularly. He almost certainly uses a one-handed weapon and doesn't do two weapon fighting. After all, if he used a two-handed weapon or two weapon fighting, he'd be sacrificing even more of his offense in order to turtle.

Once again, misleading. As I have stated now three times (and perhaps the third is the charm?) he doesn't even need to have *any* defense-focused magic items.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

And how is this useful again? You've been arguing ad nauseum in this thread that, even against the most min-maxed CR 5 opponent, you can become unhittable with the 2/1 combat expertise without any defensive items. You can achieve a similarly adequate defense for character level by investing a feat in dodge and shelling out the cash to buy a few magic items (and they don't reduce your offense either). In short, you shouldn't need more than 5 points of combat expertise plus tower shield at level 5 and, even if you did want it, flushing your offense down the toilet and plunging to make sure it's all gone would still be a bad idea 99.9% of the time. (It works in a one on one duel with a barbarian type... as long as the barbarian doesn't try any special manuevers like trip, sunder, or disarm; other than that, there are very few situations where it is more likely to save your character's life than hurting your enemy is).

At high levels, the option to get an extra +2 to AC for -2 to hit is not worth spending a feat, let alone giving up the possibility of wielding a two handed weapon or dual wielding. If you want to turtle up, odds are good you'll need more than +2.

You're missing the point--it's Improved Combat Expertise that can be used with lower BAB if you have a shield (normally taking a -7 to get +7 (or +9 with a tower shield) requires BAB 7, but now it doesn't)

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Having a 2 for 1 bonus would make ICE unworkable.

I don't see that this would be particularly sad.

If you capped it at -5 hit/+10 AC, it might not wreck your game at higher levels but it could certainly lead to some problems. It doesn't even require much of a commitment: Combat Expertise is a useful feat even for a two-hander and that same two-hander could always carry a shield around on his back if he ever wanted to get the 2 for 1 bonus. Likewise, the shield user could easily switch to a two-handed weapon if he ever wanted to and not really be disadvantaged.

I don't see what the problem is if the option might make characters who wield two-handed weapons occasionally want to trade out for a one-handed weapon. Power Attack (and even just the 1.5 strength bonus to damage) pretty regularly makes sword and board characters want to sling their shield and wield their weapon two-handed.

In any event, it's a little more involved for a two-handed weapon wielder to switch to a shield than you indicate. It would require three steps.

1. Drop the two-handed weapon (or sheathe it at the cost of a MEA)
2. Ready the shield (MEA)
3. Draw a one-handed weapon (MEA--can be reduced to a free action with Quickdraw).

So, if the character doesn't want to drop his magical two-handed weapon on the ground, he needs to spend 1.5 rounds switching weapons. Alternately, he can spend another feat and drop his main weapon to reduce the cost to a move action plus the opportunity cost of not using Weapon Focus, Specialization, Imp Crit, and the enhancements on his main weapon.

(I suppose a character could also take Improved Shield Bash and likewise reduce the cost to a move action (for readying the shield) but that sacrifices a lot more damage)).

 

[Scion]

Improved Combat Expertise can be extremely useful

One would hope it is extremely useful, it costs enough!

Still though, of the two situations you mention neither are very likely in the d&d world.. in fact, they are highly campaign specific basically hoping for low skilled foes and/or very small corridors with people who cannot get past and yet others behind can still do something useful while the other side cannot.

It may happen now and then, but the cost is high enough that it should likely be useful more often But that is neither here nor there, we are just looking at cost vs reward.


As for improved combat expertise it is a bit beyond the level of the conversation because the baseline hasnt been established, but assuming that it was then it would be easy enough to say that the maximum additional bonus you could have for using the shield is the extra +5 that you could get with expertise anyway.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

How about making Combat Expertise with a shield gives the character DR x/- where x= the number they shifted from attack to defense?

Or maybe x= 1/2 the number shifted to defense, if it seems more balanced.

 

[iwatt]

I was simply going to say that:

Characters with shields get the benefits of CE for free (but it doesn't count as a prerequisite for other feats)

Characters with shields and CE get the benefits of ICE for free.


Opinions, flames, etc?


So