[BoVD]Well, since I can't seem to post this on Wizards forums...

[Barak]

Although I do not agree with Semper's arguments, I have to help him out on one little subject. The "actors play parts who are vile in movies, does that make them vile" argument that keeps popping up doesn't do anything. Semper doesn't argue that there should be no "bad guys" in the game. He argues that the -players-, who are, after all, the "main characters of the game, shouldn't be vile characters. In 99% of the movies, the actors mentionned play parts that, if it was a D&D game, would be controlled by the DM. They are basically NPCs. Semper has no problem with that, so such arguments are pointless. As for movies in which the vile characters -are- the main characters, and are basically the "heroes" of the movie, so to speak, I would guess that Semper doesn't think much of these movies either.

 

[RobNJ]

Although I do not agree with Semper's arguments, I have to help him out on one little subject. The "actors play parts who are vile in movies, does that make them vile" argument that keeps popping up doesn't do anything. Semper doesn't argue that there should be no "bad guys" in the game. He argues that the -players-, who are, after all, the "main characters of the game, shouldn't be vile characters.

Correction, he says they shouldn't be evil characters, not vile characters.

The problem with the opposition arguement is that in fiction, things aren't black and white. Or at least, in good fiction, they're not. In good fiction, you're not always sure who's the bad guy and who's the good guy, or you know who the protagonist is, but he's not always a nice guy.

Here's a good example. I've been watching Swingers a lot lately because I got the DVD and there're 2 commentaries on it. There's this bit where Trent is trying to encourage Mike and coach him on how to successfully hit on this girl. He tells him, "I don't want you to be the guy in the PG-13 movie everyone's really hoping makes it happen. I want you to be like the guy in the rated R movie, you know, the guy you're not sure whether or not you like yet. You're not sure where he's coming from. Okay? You're a bad man. You're a bad man. You're a bad man, bad man."

Check out True Romance. You've got as your protagonists a hooker and her murdering, drug-stealing-and-selling boyfriend. Oceans Eleven: a bunch of theives. The Sopranos: A bunch of murderers and thugs. Star Wars: A bunch of insurrectionists, the most charismatic of which won't hardly do anything unless he's very well paid and has a price on his head for his part in a smuggling ring.

Yet these people are still protagonists. They're still the "hero" of the piece. And the actors who portray them, even the most vile of characters, may not automatically be assumed to be evil.

The same situation holds for role playing games and playing evil characters.

 

[RobNJ]

Somehow I reposted

 

[Henry]

Check out True Romance. You've got as your protagonists a hooker and her murdering, drug-stealing-and-selling boyfriend.

Oceans Eleven: a bunch of thieves.

The Sopranos: A bunch of murderers and thugs.

Star Wars: A bunch of insurrectionists, the most charismatic of which won't hardly do anything unless he's very well paid and has a price on his head for his part in a smuggling ring.

Yet these people are still protagonists. They're still the "hero" of the piece. And the actors who portray them, even the most vile of characters, may not automatically be assumed to be evil.

Y'know, I don't cotton to players playing Evil PC's much myself, but the man does make an interesting point.

 

[Storm Raven]

You are crediting a theory to me that is the opposite of what I suggest. My theory is based on ACTIVE parenting. I am suggesting that parent gamers will steer their children away from the hobby if it continues this vile trend.

As opposed to parents doing the much more logical thing and simply sterring their children away from the more adult themed material?

I let my children watch movies. I don't let them watch Showgirls. Why are rpgs different in that just because some content is adult oriented, children will be restricted from all rpg material?

 

[Storm Raven]

I also base this on my personal observations. I have not yet met a gamer who enjoys playing evil characters that I find trustworthy. Would you trust the guy who likes to roleplay a rapist as a baby sitter with your daughter?

DMs regularly create and portray hideously evil villains, even playing those determined to be incurably evil such as demons and devils as well as twisted and terrible villains. Do you find all DMs untrustworthy?

 

[vsper]

Book of slighty Grey

Well I know there has been a heated debate as to the "Vileness" of the BOVD. I can't say how bad it is, since I haven't seen it. If dragon 300 is any indication I am probably going to disappointed. I have been gaming since chainmail (the original) and for a long time my game has had a bit of grittyness. There are no prancing elves, no hobbiton look alikes. So when I heard of a the book of vile darkness. I though cool.

As a Gamemaster I am looking for things that will cause emotions in my players. The game I run have players as hero's and sometimes Anti-heros's. It is hard to tell what is right and wrong. When I do include something that is very dark, I want it to be dark as possible. Somethings that may even take the player by surprise and shock them. I want their moral outrage. The problem is it is hard to get that in general. Honestly CNN has things far more scary than in BOVD probably will.

Now BOVD has been hyped a bit as the baddest thing out there. I hope its "more vile" than Evil (from AEG). I suspect that it won't even come close to some of the things we see in the news. So for those of you who are affraid of your children seeing this, my advice is don't turn on the TV or see a movie. The BOVD is probably pretty watered down, and not nearly as scarry as the real world

 

[Mallus]

Bingo! --and this thread isn't done yet??

Yet these people are still protagonists. They're still the "hero" of the piece.

Thanks Rob, that's a point I was trying to make earlier, and you stated it far more succintly. Some bad guys are meant to be identified with, not just overcome. That allows the audience to vicariously experience living outside the bounds of law/convention/morality --without leaving those bounds themselves. And I think this desire to operate unfettered of constraint {at times} is damn near universal. To believe otherwise is to suggest that maintaing control over one self is an easy matter. And that cheapens real moral behavior in a way I find unconscionable...

And this is just one way of looking at things.

Let me restate what I think is the core of this debate: "What's the proper use for the imagination?"

There are so many answers to that, right? Probably as many as there are people...

Also, Samael99, you didn't buy the catharsis angle, eh? I'm only suggesting one way you could look at/play the game. I'm not sure how carthartic my own gaming experiences have been, but I'm positive I understand a few of my old friends better through the characters they've created, so I can't honestly downplay the psychological component of the game.

And RobNJ, my fave. example of bad guy protagonists has to be Al Pacino's Scarface. Never did I root for more despicable character... {oh, except maybe Ian McKellan's Richard 3rd}.

 

[Storm Raven]

2. For someone else to be guilty by association, we would have to be guilty of some sin. As we were not, they were not.

You assume, without questioning, that you have not committed any morally questionable acts in your raid. I find the fact that you make this assumption shows how truly simplistic your moral code is.

 

[Storm Raven]

While an evil character would only do good unintentionally.

Incorrect. An evil character might do good if it suited his purposes. Evil characters are not necessarily evil for evil's sake, they have motivations like anyone else. They will pursue whatever means they see as most likely to allow them to fulfil their goals, inclduing engaging in activities one would view as "good".