Bow of true arrows - to good to be true

[Shard O'Glase]

Manyshot is by no stretch of the imagination equal to or a replacement for sneak attack damage. Basically at BAB +6 and for every additional +5 BAB you can shoot another arrow, with all arrows hitting based on a single attack roll (picture the Cover of "Robin Hood : Men in Tights" where he has multiple arrows notched), up to a max of 4 arrows as a single attack.

As written the feat is arguably too good since it's only a -2 to your to hit irregardless of the number of arrows shot. However the feat designer has suggested (and I think it makes more sense) that it be a -2/per additional arrow or a total of -6 at 4 arrows.

Also it functions like a shuriken attack in that most damage bonuses only function on the first arrow (crit, Sneak attack etc...), but mighty and magical + would be added.

You could only get off one or possibly two (if hasted) per round, it is not a one to one replacement for regular attacks as it is a standard action to perform.

The shuriken not geting sneak attack damage except on 1st shot, and same with crits is nice since each one does 1 point of damage, and str mods don't go into shuriken.(making the shuriken on the weak side actually except for poison delivery) But when an arrow does 1d8+an addional 0-10 for magic and a 0-4 for str it is now tons of damage with virtually no loss in accuracy.

And since bows crit on a 20, who really cares that only one shot can be a crit, if you did a full attack how amny crits do you think you could pull off anyways. End result a bow can do with manyshot 4d8+64 at any range and 4d8+67(ave damage 82-85) at 30'.(not adding in a possible cirt on one shot) This shoots at a big -2 to hit or a vrtually guaranteed hit for all 4 shots.(caliban is right in that true strike and this being one shot so +20 for all of them screams for a rule 0 ) sneak attack does lets say with a 2 handed sword and 20 str and a +5 sword a possible 2d6+20(+9d6) ave damage 59.

Now sneak attack can get multiple attacks so maybe a rapid shot bow, or two wepaon style short swords, but with a rogues bab and the -5 for every additional attack and the need for a full attack action, the extra attacks mean a lot less though thier is a potential for some great damage. Add in that sneak attacks work only when thier is no conceelment, and against creatures you can score a crit, and sneak attack looks even worse in comparison.

Basically lets give a rogue a short bow 14 str +10 magic bonuses, a ring of blinking level 20 and all his shots hit, oh and he's hasted. 5d6+65+45d6 ave damage 240. Archer with many shot and haste 8d8+115 ave damage 141. The big difference is the archer is actually going to make these shots, and he doesn't have to worry about creature type, and concealement to foil all his damage. Assuming they both have 30 dex and are 20th level the AB would be 35/35/30/25 for the rogue, and 40/40 for the archer, the types of creatures they will be facing that very likely means 2 misses for the rogue, bringing the ave damage down to the archers level. Also since this is a single attack and not a full attack this means the archer does more damage in an ambush, or in any case where movement is needed.

 

[1337 h4xor]

one of the archers main strengths is in his range, Manyshot can only be used when you close to within 30 feet.


and you cant compare things given by spells to those given by feats. (where someone before compared power crit to hunters mercy) They are apples and oranges. By that theorey dodge is useless as the sheild spell gives you a much better ac bonus and makes you immune to magic missles.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

one of the archers main strengths is in his range, Manyshot can only be used when you close to within 30 feet.


and you cant compare things given by spells to those given by feats. (where someone before compared power crit to hunters mercy) They are apples and oranges. By that theorey dodge is useless as the sheild spell gives you a much better ac bonus and makes you immune to magic missles.

Yes range is great fun, but in most fights since you are with a party a 30' range is fairly normal. And yeah I'll admit maybe sneak attack wasn't the best example to use.(it jsut feels a lot like bonus dice of damage) Manyshot gives you a full attack on a standard action, with much greater accuracy per attack. since it is all at just -2. Ask any melle fighter whoose mom they'd kill to get many swing th ability ot get a full melee attack as a standard action but all the attacks are roled at once with a -2 penalty and only one of the hits count for a crit or snaek attack dice.

And yes you can compare some feats with spells, specifically feats that work once a day compare very nicely to spells. A feat useable once per day for one specific weapon that requires a +12 bab mimimum 12th level character should never be replicated by a 1st level ranger spell useable by a 4th level characer. The reason they put a +12 bab is because of how powerful they view the feat, so people shouldn't be able to gain access to it 8 levels earlier just because its a spell I cast spells and threrfore should be able to do anything better than anybody.

 

[mkletch]

Yes range is great fun, but in most fights since you are with a party a 30' range is fairly normal. And yeah I'll admit maybe sneak attack wasn't the best example to use.(it jsut feels a lot like bonus dice of damage) Manyshot gives you a full attack on a standard action, with much greater accuracy per attack. since it is all at just -2.

You'd be surprised how often the 30' is just no there, or that you have to use the other part of your move to get into range. It's non-trivial. And, as has been previously mentioned, the designer recommended that the penalty be increased to -2 per arrow shot. That makes it a -8 penalty (not a -6 as Rackhir mentioned) to shoot four arrows. Think of it as your third iterative attack (normally a -10 penalty). So you are trading chance to hit for damage. You could do the same thing with True Strike and Power Attack. -20 attack for PA, +20 damage for PA, +20 attack for TS. With a keen falchion and improved critical, your chance of doubling that 20 is huge (40%). So melee is not at a major disadvantage, unless you simply want to portray it that way.

And yes you can compare some feats with spells, specifically feats that work once a day compare very nicely to spells. A feat useable once per day for one specific weapon that requires a +12 bab mimimum 12th level character should never be replicated by a 1st level ranger spell useable by a 4th level characer.

A feat is supposed to be an exceptional ability. It makes almost no sense to me why a non-magical ability can only be used once per day (including rage, in my book). It's like saying that you can only walk up or down one flight of stairs per day. The only reason is game balance, which is a horrible reason if it was the only one considered (and I have to believe it was).

Hunter's Mercy is hard, but it's usable, at most a few times per day. And it has restrictions on its use. Perhaps it should have been a slightly higher level. But Power Crit is simply a bad feat; it bit off more than it could chew. Force crits all the time, and it is way overpowered. The way it is now, it is silly, nonsensical and, depending on who you talk to, weak. And there is no middle ground. It is a bad feat, and THAT is the root of your complaint, whether you think so or not. Complain all you want about hunter's mercy, but what you really seem to despise is Power Crit.

-Fletch!

 

[Shard O'Glase]

AHunter's Mercy is hard, but it's usable, at most a few times per day. And it has restrictions on its use. Perhaps it should have been a slightly higher level. But Power Crit is simply a bad feat; it bit off more than it could chew. Force crits all the time, and it is way overpowered. The way it is now, it is silly, nonsensical and, depending on who you talk to, weak. And there is no middle ground. It is a bad feat, and THAT is the root of your complaint, whether you think so or not. Complain all you want about hunter's mercy, but what you really seem to despise is Power Crit.

-Fletch!

No the root of my complaint is hunters mercy is way too powerful. Power Crit sucks for falchion wielders, but it's a sweet feat for a scythe or axe wielder. The ability to call a crit when you want it, allows you to really dish out absurd damage, when you really need it. I think it may be slightyl weak in that I'd give it maybe once a day for every 4 levels sort of like stunning blow. But that doesn't alter that the root of my complaint is that hunters mercy is massively overpowered.

 

[1337 h4xor]

have you actually had this spell used in a campaign you're running? it is far from too powerful. It's restricted to bows and only available to rangers. At most a ranger will be able to use it a few times per day and that's it. Maybe higher level rangers will get it a few more times with spell progression but high level rangers get nothing as it is... might as well throw them a bone.

however i wouldnt allow an item that gives hunters mercy unlimited times per day or in some sort of wand format. That would be silly. However the rangers spell list eats as it is and as i've said before this only applies to 1 weapon. it's useless in melee etc... which most fighers will find themselves in for certain,

 

[Thanee]

lol, it's a bow useable by only a single class in the entire game, that sounds pretty restricted to me.

Even if it were spell-trigger (otherwise the cost would be a LOT higher), I can think of at least five classes/prestige classes (3 from PHB, 1 from DMG, 1 from PsiHB) of the top of my head, which would be able to use it! I'm sure there are more!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Yep, with the -2 cumulative attack penalty, Manyshot seems almost fair, actually. Altho I still don't like it too much, just because it would look so utterly silly on the battlefield, if you imagine it (-> Diablo 2 - Amazon).

Hunter's Mercy is hard, but it's usable, at most a few times per day. And it has restrictions on its use. Perhaps it should have been a slightly higher level.

Like 5th level Ranger spell?

Just compare it to True Strike (which is an arcane Wizard/Sorcerer spell and should be more powerful in comparison)! The spell is just seriously out of bounds!

I must agree with Shard O'Glase, Hunter's Mercy deserves exactly one thing... BANNED!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Magius del Cotto]

Let's see... True Strike: Level 1 spell. Hunter's Mercy: Level 1 spell. Both only affect one attack, and both add a powerful effect (+20 for TS, automatic crit threat for HM). Both last for only one round. Hm... Seems fair enough to me. Of course, combining them together just makes things rather nasty, woulnd't you say? Especially with Manyshot (basically giving you an additional arrow free).

 

[1337 h4xor]

Just compare it to True Strike (which is an arcane Wizard/Sorcerer spell and should be more powerful in comparison)! The spell is just seriously out of bounds!

I must agree with Shard O'Glase, Hunter's Mercy deserves exactly one thing... BANNED!

I love it when people with no experience with the spell decide how terrible it is without seeing it used. Where does it state that arcane spells are more powerful than divine. I must have missed that chapter of the phb. Which first level arcane spell can cripple all enemies in a 40' radius like entangle can? none Spell's of a certain level are just as powerful across the boards. true strike guarenties a hit on everything but a 1 and can be used on all weapons.

hunters mercy auto hits and threats. It's useable with only 1 weapon. How many classes prc or regular get access to the ranger spell list? 1 just the ranger and it balances out an already horrible and useless class.