D&D (2024) bring back the pig faced orcs for 6th edition, change up hobgoblins & is there a history of the design change

[Urriak Uruk]

You were the one who brought up xenomorphs. I'm not saying orcs are just like clones or xenomorphs, just that in some ways they are similar.

Get rid of Gruumsh (or sever his ties somehow) and things might work differently even in my home campaign.

I was confused when you compared orcs to clones, as I don't think clones are evil (like, at all). Xenomorphs are IMO (though as @Charlaquin points out, they're more an immoral predatory force than anything sapient).

 

[Charlaquin]

I was confused when you compared orcs to clones, as I don't think clones are evil (like, at all). Xenomorphs are IMO (though as @Charlaquin points out, they're more an immoral predatory force than anything sapient).

I’d say amoral, rather than immoral.

 

[Oofta]

I was confused when you compared orcs to clones, as I don't think clones are evil (like, at all). Xenomorphs are IMO (though as @Charlaquin points out, their more an immoral predatory force than anything sapient).

I freely admit I'm a casual Star Wars fan. My point was that the clones were literally created for war and ultimately controlled by outside forces. It's not an exact analogy though, just a similar concept.

 

[Oofta]

Sure, which is great. Now, I've never played that game, but I'm going to make a guess.

The bandits are "human" and so are the people of the good settlements right? So, you have a species that is being presented with good sides and bad sides.

What's wrong with ackowledging, in the default level of the game of Dungeons and Dragons, where we have written how orcs are raised, who raises them, their beliefs, their superstitions, their symbology, their tools, their myths and ect ect, that some orcs are good and some are not?

Not in your game. I know you don't want it in your game, I understand that and I'm not interested in talking about your game at all. What is wrong with giving the same treatment of seeing two sides to orcs, when we already have so much written about them?

See this is where I answer a question with my own logic and reasoning and then for some reason I'm blaming everything on colonialism with "nobody" is pushing.

The logical conclusion to your suggestion is reeducation boarding schools for young orcs so that they can be "civilized". On the other hand, do what makes sense in your campaign as always. I'll repeat yet again: people should do what makes sense to them and there should be more emphasis on alignment just being the default. I happen to use the default because it suits a specific role.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Gnolls aren’t fiends though. If they become fiends in 6e or in a mass errata, I’ll begrudgingly accept that they’re always evil, but unless and until that happens, it’s exactly the same problem as always-evil orcs.

As to whether or not fiends being always evil is problematic, I don’t think they are personally, but I concede that there are some pretty strong arguments one could make that they are. But, I think they’re fine because the nature of outsiders is that their natures are defined by their alignment, rather than the reverse. If a devil stops being evil, it stops being a devil.

I'm always torn about Gnolls.

On one hand, I love Gnoll Characters from other media. They are some of my favorites, and I would love to see them able to be played in DnD.

On the other hand. I enjoy Gnolls as irredeemable monsters. I would actually make them Monstrosities instead of fiends though. Fiend implies a level of magical "weight" that most beings cursed into foul forms lack (see Medusa and Minotaurs from 5e lore). And Gnolls are cursed, they are cursed hyenas.

So, I always go back and forth about them.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

I freely admit I'm a casual Star Wars fan. My point was that the clones were literally created for war and ultimately controlled by outside forces. It's not an exact analogy though, just a similar concept.

I see. The clone example does go against your argument about orcs however, as clones do largely (with the notable Order 66 example) have free will and are essentially "war slaves." It would be wrong to assume all clones are evil and kill on sight, even after Order 66 has occurred.

If orcs were made in a similar way to clones... well, it would be wrong to kill them on-sight too.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I'm just quoting the MM. They are a race created to wage endless war.

P.S. Or are you going to call me a liar again? Because you never did respond to my questions in this post.

The endless war came after they were denied land by the gods. So, what were they created for before that?

 

[Oofta]

The endless war came after they were denied land by the gods. So, what were they created for before that?

Formless? Whatever they were before Gruumsh remade them into a weapon? Is a sword any less a sword if it was once a plowshare?

 

[Oofta]

I see. The clone example does go against your argument about orcs however, as clones do largely (with the notable Order 66 example) have free will and are essentially "war slaves." It would be wrong to assume all clones are evil and kill on sight, even after Order 66 has occurred.

If orcs were made in a similar way to clones... well, it would be wrong to kill them on-sight too.

I don't really know anything about the clones other than what I've seen in the movies. It is not, nor was it meant to be a perfect analogy.

 

[Chaosmancer]

See this is where I answer a question with my own logic and reasoning and then for some reason I'm blaming everything on colonialism with "nobody" is pushing.

The logical conclusion to your suggestion is reeducation boarding schools for young orcs so that they can be "civilized". On the other hand, do what makes sense in your campaign as always. I'll repeat yet again: people should do what makes sense to them and there should be more emphasis on alignment just being the default. I happen to use the default because it suits a specific role.

So, the answer to North Korea is to kidnap all their children and put them in reeducation camps?

This is your problem, you jump straight from "enemy nation" to "reeducation camps" like that is the only possible route we could take. We can't possibly have allied orcs, because if we did then the only answer to our enemies who happen to be orcs is a reeducation camp. Meanwhile, The Scarlet Brotherhood or the Zhentarim don't get the same response, but those are evil groups of humans.

There are more options. Stop trying to say that we only have a single possible answer to the problem of enemy nations.