D&D (2024) bring back the pig faced orcs for 6th edition, change up hobgoblins & is there a history of the design change

[Charlaquin]

Okay that’s fine, but i assume you can see the issue with a world that does have cosmic good and evil, and then has good gods that aren’t really good? Like, you needn’t like that worldbuilding element to understand it, right?

Yeah, definitely. If good and evil are cosmic forces, ambiguity in the goodness and evilness of the gods is internally inconsistent.

Well... Unless good and evil are forces that exist even beyond the gods, and the gods aren’t any more inherently good or evil than mortals are.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Yeah, definitely. If good and evil are cosmic forces, ambiguity in the goodness and evilness of the gods is internally inconsistent.

Well... Unless good and evil are forces that exist even beyond the gods, and the gods aren’t any more inherently good or evil than mortals are.

That, to me, defeats the purpose of even having gods or cosmic good and evil.

 

[Charlaquin]

That, to me, defeats the purpose of even having gods or cosmic good and evil.

I dunno. Think about, like, Greek mythology. Maybe a heavier focus on order vs. chaos than good vs. evil, but the concepts certainly existed, and were cosmic forces. And the gods were no more inherently good nor evil than mortals. They were every bit as petty and flawed as us. Cosmic forces like Good and Evil existed beyond the gods, as fundamental truths of the cosmos.

 

[Chaosmancer]

This is why I shouldn't bother answering questions. First, who the **** said North Korean kids are evil? Anyone?

I'm done trying to have a conversation with you.

I didn't say North Korea kids were evil, now did I?

The point was, you keep saying that if we have good orcs, at all, the only answer to orcs that are adversarial or choose to not pursue peace (ie, act evil) is to take their children and put them in re-education camps.

North Korea has taken a very agressive stance on most of the world. They are adversaries who are choosing not to pursue peace. They have a culture that is steeped in propaganda against us. That is fairly close to what I imagine a tribe of orcs who promotes raiding human settlements would be like. So, if the only possible answer to those orcs is reeducation camps... why aren't you advocating that that is the only possible answer to ALL adversaries? Why is this the only possible solution to enemy nations?

 

[Chaosmancer]

What he said was


I don't even know where that came from.

From you seeming to think that that is the only way to respond to an enemy nation. I... laid that out. Maybe not in the first sentence, but clearly in that post

The question is:

First, I have no clue how much more often I can acknowledge that different campaigns can and should handle things differently. I don't have the 5E version of Eberron, but my understanding is that they change the lore for orcs. Cool beans.

But ... "orcs are raised, who raises them, their beliefs, their superstitions, their symbology, their tools, their myths and ect ect, that some orcs are good" sounds to me exactly like the justification used for the boarding schools that had the goal of reeducating "savages".

I really don't understand why you don't acknowledge that the idea that in order to reform someone you have to get them to reject their heritage and culture is bad.

In any case, it's a gotcha question which is why I'm not going to bother answering. If you don't accept my logic, so be it.

I think I had too many phrases in the middle of that.

Here was the question without the fluff. "What's wrong with ackowledging, in the default level of the game of Dungeons and Dragons, that some orcs are good and some are not?"

The stuff about " where we have written how orcs are raised, who raises them, their beliefs, their superstitions, their symbology, their tools, their myths and ect ect," was to show that... we've written a lot about orcs. This isn't some race like Boggles that have a single entry and some minor lore. There are so many details about what orcs believe, how their culture works, ect ect. We can't just say "but that is a detail we aren't concerned with" when it comes to why can't we have some good orcs.

In your game you have never shown a female orc. In the default of DnD we know how the Default orc culture ranks females, their role in the tribe, their practices, where they live, their political power. All of this information that you haven't bothered with, the game of dungeons and dragons DID bother with.

So... why can't we bother with laying out good orcs?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I dunno. Think about, like, Greek mythology. Maybe a heavier focus on order vs. chaos than good vs. evil, but the concepts certainly existed, and were cosmic forces. And the gods were no more inherently good nor evil than mortals. They were every bit as petty and flawed as us. Cosmic forces like Good and Evil existed beyond the gods, as fundamental truths of the cosmos.

Two issues with that.

Firstly, Greek myth is definitely not about cosmic good and evil. At all. Not even remotely. Like...it literally bears no relation whatsoever, on any level, with cosmic good and evil.

Second, the evils of the gods is likely at least a little exaggerated by playwrights, who were criticized by their peers for telling versions of the stories of the gods that make the gods look bad.

More to the point, even the concepts of order and chaos aren’t even cosmic in the same way that they are in D&D or in a lot of fantasy fiction. The gods aren’t the gods of Order, none of them are dedicated to Order as a high level concept, they’re just The Gods of Olympus, who overthrew the more wild and destructive titans.

If you present a world in which there are Gods of Good, as such, and Good is a cosmic force that matters, then the Gods of Good must actually be Good.

 

[Charlaquin]

Two issues with that.

Firstly, Greek myth is definitely not about cosmic good and evil. At all. Not even remotely. Like...it literally bears no relation whatsoever, on any level, with cosmic good and evil.

I didn’t say Greek myth was about cosmic good and evil. But Greek philosophers absolutely conceived of good and evil as fundamental forces of the cosmos.

Second, the evils of the gods is likely at least a little exaggerated by playwrights, who were criticized by their peers for telling versions of the stories of the gods that make the gods look bad.

Sure. Point is, their gods were complex. Generally viewed as overall positive, but absolutely not unambiguous bastions of goodness.

More to the point, even the concepts of order and chaos aren’t even cosmic in the same way that they are in D&D or in a lot of fantasy fiction.

Chaos is absolutely 100% a cosmic force in Greek myth, and it is antithetical to the Gods (well, to the Olympians, anyway), and to the proper way of things - which is to say, order.

The gods aren’t the gods of Order, none of them are dedicated to Order as a high level concept, they’re just The Gods of Olympus, who overthrew the more wild and destructive titans.

The “God(s) of Thing(s)” notion is a very modern one, and not at all consistent with... basically any ancient religions, but certainly not Greek myth. The Olympians were the Olympians. Complex and nuanced as any human. Certainly you would make sacrifices to specific gods for specific reasons, but to conceptualize them as “Gods of this or that” is to woefully oversimplify them.

If you present a world in which there are Gods of Good, as such, and Good is a cosmic force that matters, then the Gods of Good must actually be Good.

Sure. My point is that there don’t need to be Gods of Good for Good to be a cosmic force that matters. If you like, think of it like Goodness itself is the “God of Good,” and all Good-aligned gods are lesser Gods that, in a very literal sense, owe allegiance to it. Allies of Good, not embodiments of it.

But, I digress. To reiterate my answer to your question, yes, I can see how moral ambiguity in Gods of Good in a setting that has such things is internally inconsistent, even if it’s not a setting conceit I much care for.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I didn’t say Greek myth was about cosmic good and evil. But Greek philosophers absolutely conceived of good and evil as fundamental forces of the cosmos.

Philosophers didn’t make up the myths or determine the nature of the gods.

Sure. Point is, their gods were complex. Generally viewed as overall positive, but absolutely not unambiguous bastions of goodness.

Sure, and don’t exist in a cosmology conceived of as being Order and Chaos as the driving cosmic forces of the universe. The gods aren’t especially orderly, because they aren’t gods of order like Bahamit in FR is a god of good and order.

Chaos is absolutely 100% a cosmic force in Greek myth, and it is antithetical to the Gods and to the proper way of things (which is to say, order.)

I think you’re defining “Chaos as a cosmic force” vastly too broadly if you think it applies unambiguously to Greek myth.

The “God(s) of Thing(s)” notion is a very modern one, and not at all consistent with... basically any ancient religions, but certainly not Greek myth. The Olympians were the Olympians. Complex and nuanced as any human. Certainly you would make sacrifices to specific gods for specific reasons, but to conceptualize them as “Gods of this or that” is to woefully oversimplify them.

This seems to be completely out of left field? I didn’t bring of gods of things.

Sure. My point is that there don’t need to be Gods of Good for Good to be a cosmic force that matters.

I didn’t say that there did. I said that if there are gods of good, which there are in D&D , then the rest of what I said follows. I am only saying the things I’ve said, not other things.

If you like, think of it like Goodness itself is the God of Good, and all Good-aligned gods are lesser Gods that, in a very literal sense, owe allegiance to it. Allies of Good, not avatars of it.

No. That isn’t how the D&D cosmology works.

 

[Charlaquin]

Philosophers didn’t make up the myths or determine the nature of the gods.

Ok?

Sure, and don’t exist in a cosmology conceived of as being Order and Chaos as the driving cosmic forces of the universe.

I don’t know how you can possibly come to the conclusion that Chaos isn’t a driving cosmic force in Greek myth. It was the fundamental state of the cosmos prior to the emergence of Gaia (and also kind of an entity - the Greeks were big on personifying concepts) and pretty much everything that occurred from that point on was a gradual process of forging order out of that initial Chaos.

The gods aren’t especially orderly, because they aren’t gods of order like Bahamit in FR is a god of good and order.

That’s kind of my whole point.

I think you’re defining “Chaos as a cosmic force” vastly too broadly if you think it applies unambiguously to Greek myth.

I think I’m applying it pretty appropriately. But perhaps I’m misunderstanding what you’re using it to mean.

This seems to be completely out of left field? I didn’t bring of gods of things.

You’ve literally been talking about Gods of Good and Gods of Order. That’s precisely the God of Things trope.

I didn’t say that there did. I said that if there are gods of good, which there are in D&D , then the rest of what I said follows. I am only saying the things I’ve said, not other things.

I said I understand how ambiguous morality in settings where Good and Evil are cosmic forces would be an undesirable thing - except in cases where the Gods are not embodiments of those cosmic forces. You said that would defeat the purpose of Good and Evil as cosmic forces. This is just me disagreeing with that position.

No. That isn’t how the D&D cosmology works.

I mean, D&D cosmology works any way the DM wants it to. But I’ll agree it’s not how the Great Wheel cosmology typically works.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Ok?

I don’t know how you can possibly come to the conclusion that Chaos isn’t a driving cosmic force in Greek myth. It was the fundamental state of the cosmos prior to the emergence of Gaia (and also kind of an entity - the Greeks were big on personifying concepts) and pretty much everything that occurred from that point on was a gradual process of forging order out of that initial Chaos.

A mythology wherein gods and heroes fight chaotic beings because they have to in order to establish their own power or to protect home and family isn’t necessarily a mythology in which Chaos is a fundamental force of the universe that one might mystically align oneself with. It’s just the cosmic version of establishing cities and fighting bears in order to take their territory and make a farm there. Fantasy works like D&D are doing a fundementally different thing from most real world mythology.

That’s kind of my whole point.

I think I’m applying it pretty appropriately. But perhaps I’m misunderstanding what you’re using it to mean.

You’ve literally been talking about Gods of Good and Gods of Order. That’s precisely the God of Things trope.

No, it isn’t. Good and Order are not archery and games and war. The Gods of Good are gods whose nature is Good, not gods who govern Good in the way a lot of people imagine Thor to govern storms. Notice how in D&D Bahamuts alignment is Lawful Good, but there is no Domain for either concept. Good and war are in two wholly different categories of ideas.

I said I understand how ambiguous morality in settings where Good and Evil are cosmic forces would be an undesirable thing - except in cases where the Gods are not embodiments of those cosmic forces. You said that would defeat the purpose of Good and Evil as cosmic forces. This is just me disagreeing with that position.

I mean, D&D cosmology works any way the DM wants it to. But I’ll agree it’s not how the Great Wheel cosmology typically works.

Okay? The discussion is about the published D&D cosmology, not either of our homebrews. I have worlds that have no gods, and worlds where “evil” gods are basically non-existent but some gods are indifferent to mortals, but when I play in a published world I tend to mostly take its high level concepts as they are.

The Olympians are great because they protect the order that benefits Greeks, and make the rain happen and the sun set and those things happen in a predictable manner so things like cities and farms can work. That doesn’t ask of them that they be Good. They didn’t even expect their heroes to be especially Good. Even if we accept the idea that Order and Chaos are comparable to Law and Chaos in D&D , and I don’t, that doesn’t have any impact whatsoever on the question of Good and Evil, so this whole Greek discussion is a tangent. In order to be relevant, you’d have to be making points about the Greek Gods being chaotic in spite of being gods of order.