D&D (2024) bring back the pig faced orcs for 6th edition, change up hobgoblins & is there a history of the design change

[Wolf72]

I am not interested in anthropomorphizing nonexistant fantasy creatures...and then getting all worked up pretending these are some kind of real world analogue for racial strife, inject racism into my game and demand social justice debates in the fantasy game/world of make-believe. It's a game of heroic adventure in a world of magic for crying out loud.

Yup. I think that's along the lines I was feeling as well.

 

[Faolyn]

Nooo, not "really, Dude." Nobody said anything about -nor is there the slightest relevance to- their skin color. But way to miss the whole point.

Yes, you are missing the point.

If you're killing goblins just because they're goblins, then that's a problem.

You're killing goblins because "they're existing while EVIL." which -I am submitting- is a perfectly reasonable innate state of being for certain [not real] creatures in a [not real] magical fantasy world.

Are they actually engaging in Evil? Are they actually killing and enslaving and hurting others? Or is it like in the Sims, where you can take Evil Showers and cook Evil Dinners? Because a creature that isn't actually doing anything evil--and no, I don't mean "just right now" shouldn't be considered evil.

And more to the point, there are humans, even in a game world, who are actually killing and enslaving and hurting others, but for some reasons humans don't have that Always Evil tag.

Some folks need to really back up and do some examination of all the "that's racist/racism" shlock they're trying to, both, infuse to the game and accusing others where it is entirely unwarranted.

I am not interested in anthropomorphizing nonexistant fantasy creatures...and then getting all worked up pretending these are some kind of real world analogue for racial strife, inject racism into my game and demand social justice debates in the fantasy game/world of make-believe. It's a game of heroic adventure in a world of magic for crying out loud.

I don't find it heroic to kill a goblin just for being a goblin.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Nuanced, no. Fun, yes, if you find pretend nuance and moral quandaries less fun than pretend fighting.

So, if it makes the game more fun for some people, why shouldn't those people be able to do that?

Look, I like pretend fighting. Violence is not only the answer, but the question and also an ancillary conversation.

But. I would rather fight for reasons that don't skeeve me out and imitate the same people who want to kill/harm/insult/disenfranchise me for being born a way they consider 'wrong' (and being third generation 'wrong' to boot!).

 

[steeldragons]

Are they actually engaging in Evil? Are they actually killing and enslaving and hurting others?

OF COURSE they are. It's what Goblins DO. Why? Oh right, because Goblins are EVIL. So, yeah, they are "engaged in Evil." If they weren't why would you be encountering them at all?

I'm really pretty done here. Let's just agree to be thankful neither of us have to play at the others' table.

Enjoy your "D&D is a place for enacting real world social justice, unlimited possibilities for all, everything can be anything, thus mean nothing, and resolve amicably. Who amongst us can say what Evil really is?" Good times.

 

[Faolyn]

OF COURSE they are. It's what Goblins DO. Why? Oh right, because Goblins are EVIL. So, yeah, they are "engaged in Evil." If they weren't why would you be encountering them at all?

Why do people encounter humans, elves, or dwarfs in your games?

If your party sometimes fights them because they're bad guys, and sometimes just trades with them, or gets plot hooks from them, or helps them out of a jam, then that's exactly why you would encounter goblins and other, similar creatures.

Is that really so hard to understand?

 

[jmartkdr2]

But. I would rather fight for reasons that don't skeeve me out and imitate the same people who want to kill/harm/insult/disenfranchise me for being born a way they consider 'wrong' (and being third generation 'wrong' to boot!).

Then don't. Ask the question why the goblins are evil. You'll get told about all the evil stuff they did

If that isn't enough for you, keep digging, but don't complain about other people being satisfied with that kind of answer.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

OF COURSE they are. It's what Goblins DO. Why? Oh right, because Goblins are EVIL. So, yeah, they are "engaged in Evil." If they weren't why would you be encountering them at all?

You know, I'm going to roleplay as a Scarlet Brotherhood member for a second (and avoid real-world connotations), and replace a single word of your quote here.

"OF COURSE they are. It's what Baklunish DO. Why? Oh right, because Baklunish are EVIL. So, yeah, they are "engaged in Evil." If they weren't why would you be encountering them at all?"

Man, the Scarlet Brotherhood is a really intolerant organization for categorizing a whole group of humans like this with no evidence except their own prejudices. I really like fighting that assassin's guild of supremacists!

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

OF COURSE they are. It's what Goblins DO. Why? Oh right, because Goblins are EVIL. So, yeah, they are "engaged in Evil." If they weren't why would you be encountering them at all?

That's a pretty circular argument. Goblins are Evil. Why? Because Goblins do evil things. Why? Because goblins are Evil!!!

In my world, goblins are more complex than just giant pests that deserve squashing by casual adventurers. They actually have culture, religion, and wars not based on evil, but on ideas that humans (and other humanoid races) can understand and empathize with. They worship my world's "God" of Magic (not really a real god, it doesn't have a physical form and isn't really sentient, it's more of my world's version of the Weave, if it were put in a blender and held together in a ball with super-glue. But they worship it, and it grants them divine and arcane magic, and can even turn some of the goblinoids into arcane angels). They base their culture around this religion, and the religion isn't inherently evil, it's just very rigid on its thinking of psionics (and there is a race of psionic people that they hate and routinely go to war with).

Now, some of these goblins are truly evil, wanting to completely eradicate innocent/passive psionic races just because they dare to exist, however, there are other goblins that are more accepting and shun the practice of psionics but don't berserk every time they see a psychic character. Some are good, some are bad. Like humans.

Does that make them humans, though? Are they just a group of humans in silly hats? No, they're not. They're still goblins. They're still small, sneaky, yellow-green skinned, big-nosed humanoids, and are distinct from humans, elves, dwarves, and the rest of the races in my world. Being like humans in their ability to have more than one alignment doesn't make them human, anymore than the fact that a cow having hooves and a deer has hooves doesn't them the same thing or invalidated by the other.

Orcs are the same way in my world. So are Gnolls, Bugbears, Hobgoblins, Drow, Kobolds, and pretty much every other humanoid race in my setting. But they're still unique, and IMHO, are more interesting because they are more complex, not boring or idiotic.

 

[steeldragons]

You know, I'm going to roleplay as a Scarlet Brotherhood member for a second (and avoid real-world connotations), and replace a single word of your quote here.

"OF COURSE they are. It's what Baklunish DO. Why? Oh right, because Baklunish are EVIL. So, yeah, they are "engaged in Evil." If they weren't why would you be encountering them at all?"

Man, the Scarlet Brotherhood is a really intolerant organization for categorizing a whole group of humans like this with no evidence except their own prejudices. I really like fighting that assassin's guild of supremacists!

<shrug>'kay...?

 

[Charlaquin]

I guess I'm really old school, it was much easier to have a legitimate group to hate.

I don’t deny that it’s easier. You know what they say about what things in life are worth doing though.

To much flavor + humans with green plates stapled to their heads:

How? Why can’t anyone explain to me how “not one fixed alignment” = “basically human.” It makes zero sense to me. Is lack of nuance literally the only distinguishing trait people give their non-human races?

I, however, do like having some races that are iconic whether they be good or evil. There is no question in my mind that in Tolkien's books that orcs are utterly evil -- they aren't simply fighting over resources and tradition and what-have-you.

I know it's probably just nostalgia and perhaps a bit of short cut in a campaign, I just like it 'old-school' for many things.

And again, feel free to like what you like. But we’re talking about what WotC should do in the official books, not what people do in their own campaigns. I think the responsible thing for WotC to do is to not depict entire races as monolithic, especially not monolithically evil.