D&D (2024) bring back the pig faced orcs for 6th edition, change up hobgoblins & is there a history of the design change

[Wolf72]

I don’t deny that it’s easier. You know what they say about what things in life are worth doing though.

How? Why can’t anyone explain to me how “not one fixed alignment” = “basically human.” It makes zero sense to me. Is lack of nuance literally the only distinguishing trait people give their non-human races?

And again, feel free to like what you like. But we’re talking about what WotC should do in the official books, not what people do in their own campaigns. I think the responsible thing for WotC to do is to not depict entire races as monolithic, especially not monolithically evil.

What they say is "You do you, and let me do me" ... What's right for you and your game, is well right for you and your game. Great. I think we all agree. If want your [choose traditionally evil humanoid] that well defined, awesome. Like I said earlier, I really like the history of Orcs in WoW. I just feel that I like my antagonists to be a little more two dimensional at times, especially if they're the grunts/mobs/mooks of the world.

Can't answer the alignment question completely, Humans are the "unpredictable everything" it's been their shtick for a while. Orcs are [were!] a fairly universal evil that you count on being evil. If you think the PTB expand things, ok. I'm sure they'll a bit of both, produce a splatbook/source that expands the roles of the race to more inclusive of everything.

Every so often I reread through my 1e DMG. Gygax has some very precise points about why the game is focused the way it is. (That being said, I'm not trying to start any fanboyism v. bashing posts.) The game has changed by leaps and bounds when it comes to fluff, it's more complex, richer, and at times overwhelming.

Monolithic Evil? Meh, agree to disagree. You have a very good and modern point. They can do as they please. My first time playing D&D was ... a very long time ago and I had fun disengaging from realism in fantasy gaming. While I like my evil to stay evil (simple or complex reasons, I don't care. I have enough time playing D&D I am more than capable of making my campaign my own work), I won't flip out if they change it, I won't flip if they don't.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Don't disagree. In fact, I do agree and apply as such at my own table. On the same token, for a game at their table, all the justification they need is to say "they're evil". They don't need any further justification. I mean, we've spent the last several threads on this topic saying we don't care what they do at their own table. So if their table is "goblins are evil cuz I said so", then OK. I don't need any more info.

Okay, but there is that thing we keep seeing that has nothing to do with anything we are talking about.

"At my own table"

Sure, great. Do whatever you want at your table. Dress in a toga and have people call you Lord Toga-Pants, I don't care. But WoTC? Why are we going to say that they can get away with "they are just evil" when they have made at least one entire book this edition exploring the culture, beliefs, afterlife and societal structure of these beings?

I'm sure if we took everything written about Goblins from the 3rd edition til now, we would have more written about Goblin Culture than has been written for any single alien race from Star Trek. There is SO MUCH goblin lore. They clearly care enough about goblins to explore them, so can't they do something more interesting than "because they are?"

Especially when, if we look at what they have said, Goblins are evil because they have been brutalized and enlaved by an Evil God-Killing entity that forces them into an eternity of endless fighting for his armies. That seems kind of a like a big deal to look at a race with that FACT about them and say "but they are evil because they are evil, and you really don't need to know more about them"

 

[Wolf72]

You laughed at my last post, but I'm serious. You seem to have this vision of DnD that none of these characters who are good from an evil race exist, but they do. So, why is what we are asking so impossible as to destroy the game as we know it?

Speaking out of turn, and possibly out of place ... but where did SD claim that it was an impossibility for those races to have very rare good members?

I thought he was getting at the 99% of them are evil, those rare anomalies, are just that. And quite possibly make some good reading. (Man I wish I could have kept up with with RA Salvatore, but I'll be content rereading my spine broke Icewind Dale Trilogy).

 

[Sacrosanct]

Okay, but there is that thing we keep seeing that has nothing to do with anything we are talking about.

"At my own table"

Sure, great. Do whatever you want at your table. Dress in a toga and have people call you Lord Toga-Pants, I don't care. But WoTC? Why are we going to say that they can get away with "they are just evil" when they have made at least one entire book this edition exploring the culture, beliefs, afterlife and societal structure of these beings?

I'm sure if we took everything written about Goblins from the 3rd edition til now, we would have more written about Goblin Culture than has been written for any single alien race from Star Trek. There is SO MUCH goblin lore. They clearly care enough about goblins to explore them, so can't they do something more interesting than "because they are?"

Especially when, if we look at what they have said, Goblins are evil because they have been brutalized and enlaved by an Evil God-Killing entity that forces them into an eternity of endless fighting for his armies. That seems kind of a like a big deal to look at a race with that FACT about them and say "but they are evil because they are evil, and you really don't need to know more about them"

I apologize if I misread or misconstrued what was going on, but it didn't seem like steeldragons was talking about making the game officially like what they wanted, but was talking about their own personal table and preferences. I think their comment about "thankfully we don't game at each other's table" gave me that impression that it was a personal take thing, rather than an official position wotc should take

 

[Wolf72]

Some transparency here: I have not read every page, it's after school hours, kids in bed and I have to pick and choose my vice for the night (D&D, Battletech, Diablo3, ... so wish I had time for WoW ).

From what I did read, I assumed (always a good way to derail any sane thinking) is that SD supported that in a fantasy world, we can and have made things that really are that straight forward. Opening up a race to have this rich, vibrant, brutal, decadent, etc. history can get out of hand for some or just to much extra information. Historically those races have been evil, that's it. You want more, do it.

Replacing goblins with the Scarlett Brotherhood is like apples and oranges, lots of similarities, but many key differences. The Brotherhood is an evil, supremacist organization, been that way since 1e and haven't really changed (Last source I have on them is the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer).

I think this thread is breaking down into some old school cranks (me!) wondering why ya'll are changing the world upside down? Newer kids on the block totally enjoying modernizing things, but us old farts don't want you to forget (or never know) what it "used" to be like.

(I'm so far beyond buying new fluff material anyway -- WoTC, go whicever way you think will appeal to more people)

 

[steeldragons]

In the case that they are not those things, that they are not evil incarnated into flesh... why is it so hard to imagine having orcs or goblins that are not murdering, enslaving or hurting others?

Who said it was difficult to imagine?

We have giants like that, we have drow like that, we have chromatic dragons like that.

Other Drizzt, I have no idea to whom you are referring. ...and I really don't consider some last minute sidekick generated for as much "oo wow how funky broody different" as the ONE good drow in the Forgotten Realms as a model upon which to base making any/all creatures allowed to think/do whatever they want.

Why not orcs and Goblins? Why are orcs and Goblins MORE evil than Drow or Chromatic dragons? Why is this a step to far and so impossible to do?

No one said orcs or goblins were "more evil" than Drow or Chromatics...though they, indisputably and irretrievably, are evil also.

Also, I never said -nor even implied- it was something that is "impossible to do." It's simply unnecessary and undesirable for the game.

You laughed at my last post, but I'm serious. You seem to have this vision of DnD that none of these characters who are good from an evil race exist, but they do. So, why is what we are asking so impossible as to destroy the game as we know it?

That is, also, untrue and not anything I ever said.

The only one of these "good from an evil race" characters that you seem to think are so widespread and popular, is Drizzt. I know he exists. I just see no reason that he should/does (after all this time). This singular afterthought from some Salvatore book should be "trend setting," let alone dictating anything, within the game. A single character in some fiction is not grounds for altering how every species or every imaginary creature and culture across D&D is "just like humans" -even though Dripz only exists in Forgotten Realms, whether they use him as the 'Elf" species picture in PHB or not.

Again, not "impossible." Never said that. Just unwanted...and unnecessary as almost all "change for change's sake" -more often than not, these days, exulted by the ridiculous label of "innovation" - is.

 

[steeldragons]

I apologize if I misread or misconstrued what was going on, but it didn't seem like steeldragons was talking about making the game officially like what they wanted, but was talking about their own personal table and preferences. I think their comment about "thankfully we don't game at each other's table" gave me that impression that it was a personal take thing, rather than an official position wotc should take

Right. This.

Nothing I (or any of us here) say is going to matter to what WotC ultimately does anyway.

 

[Wolf72]

was just thinking "Hey, get your cultured hides out of my hack-slash-and-monster-bash" (Vice versa applies here)

 

[Vaalingrade]

The only one of these "good from an evil race" characters that you seem to think are so widespread and popular, is Drizzt. I know he exists. I just see no reason that he should/does (after all this time). This singular afterthought from some Salvatore book should be "trend setting," let alone dictating anything, within the game. A single character in some fiction is not grounds for altering how every species or every imaginary creature and culture across D&D -even though Dripz only exists in Forgotten Realms, whether they use him as the 'Elf" species picture in PHB or not.

Just with the drow as an example, are you just unaware that good drow are numerous enough to have a goddess and everything, or just purposefully ignoring them for effect?

Also the idea that probably the single most recognizable D&D character is 'an afterthought'? I don't even like him and... really?

 

[steeldragons]

Just with the drow as an example, are you just unaware that good drow are numerous enough to have a goddess and everything, or just purposefully ignoring them for effect?

I'm not ignoring them. They are irrelevant to any game not occuring in Forgotten Realms....and/or any version of Forgotten Realms that doesn't include her or good drow.

Also the idea that probably the single most recognizable D&D character is 'an afterthought'? I don't even like him and... really?

Allegedly, he was whipped up because someone, during the writing of Crystal Shard, told Salvatore, "Wulfgar needs a sidekick." So he came up with Drizzt. Clearly, I don't like him or consider him important to the game. But I'm not just saying that as some kind of "bash." That's literally how he came to be.

SO, what's that saying? That that's what has become (and yes, I understand they went on to give him his own trilogy...or more?) the "most recognizable D&D character," which is really still only applicable to people who know D&D, the Forgotten Realms, and/or Salvatore's books.