D&D (2024) bring back the pig faced orcs for 6th edition, change up hobgoblins & is there a history of the design change

[doctorbadwolf]

Since I have no use in my campaign (queue the "we're not just talking about your campaign complaint) for non-evil orcs they don't exist. The variations on orcs that are not adversarial should, IMHO, be left to individual campaigns.

You deride people for pointing out that we aren’t talking about your campaign...and then explicitly say that the game in general should be a certain way, which is unavoidably a comment on the game as a whole, not your campaign.

Orcs should be diverse. They are a player race, and that isn’t going to go away.

 

[QuentinGeorge]

I don't really have any objection to whatever variation of orc people have in their own campaign, but the lore on orcs in D&D has been pretty consistent:

1) They are a normal humanoid race that produces with sexual reproduction, meaning they have male orcs, female orcs, and children of both sexes.
2) They can reproduce with humans with little difficulty.
3) There has been enough cases of non-evil orcs from Basic and 1E onwards that we know that they are able to be alignments other than evil.
4) They tend to have a culture and religion that exults physical prowess and the right of the strong to take what they want. Their culture also looks upon other species with disdain.

Therefore it seems fairly inarguable that in TSR/WoTC released lore, orcs are a variety of humanoids, like humans, elves, gnomes et al, they are not a hivemind, they generally will be evil, but not always. And it seems even evil orcs (like Robilar's henchman, Quij) are able to work with non-orcs to accomplish non-destructrive outcomes.

Is there even a D&D campaign where this is not true? Krynn doesn't have orcs, but goblinoids fill substantially the same niche.

So yeah having orcs without a default alignment makes sense (unlike a demon or devil). I don't really see the issue. Want evil orcs? Go for it. No more difficult than having evil humans or elves. Do your players worry when they kill a human bandit in the game? Why do you need your enemies to be souless automatons?

 

[QuentinGeorge]

Other Drizzt, I have no idea to whom you are referring. ...and I really don't consider some last minute sidekick generated for as much "oo wow how funky broody different" as the ONE good drow in the Forgotten Realms as a model upon which to base making any/all creatures allowed to think/do whatever they want.

There was literally a non-evil drow in the Vault of the Drow adventure, part of the series where they were introduced. I think it's pretty clear Gygax was under the impression drow had free will. I don't know if Gygax even intended for the Lolth-worshipping drow to be typical of the whole race rather than just that one city.

 

[QuentinGeorge]

People keep bring up Tolkien's orcs, which is weird, because D&D orcs have a less magical and more mundane origin and culture than Lord of the Rings. So if Tolkien was troubled by the treatment of orcs in his own work, I can't imagine he'd be cool with considering the D&D orcs inherently evil and fit for killing on discovery.

(Not to mention D&D orcs are basically steppe raiders, whereas Tolkien orcs are the soulless minions of industrialised war)

 

[QuentinGeorge]

Orcs, and similar creatures such as goblins and hobgoblins are already almost completely anthropomorphised. They are flesh and blood. They require food, water, and shelter. They are mortal. They can be injured and die. They feel pain. They are humanoid and of roughly human size. They have opposable thumbs, and use tools. They wear clothing. They construct buildings. They can talk, and have language. They are social. They have culture. They have religion. They live in organised societies. They have children. They give birth to helpless infants that must be cared for.

The main way in which they are unlike humans is, as you say, that they are evil.

In my view there are two reasonable directions in which to take orcs and other evil humanoids -- make them less evil or make them less human.

The latter could involve making them more like demons -- lack normal biological processes, do not bear children (perhaps they are spawned magically in vats or occur 'naturally' in places where evil acts have been committed) -- or beasts -- no societies, language, culture, tool-use, etc.

This. They've already been "made human" by the lore they have accumulated.

 

[Minigiant]

To me it all comes down to creature type.

Orcs as Humanoids

Orcs are humanoids with big teeth, large muscles, darkvision,and powerful builds. They can reproduce with humans. Their largeness nudges their cultures and societies to favoring size, strength, might, and intimidation. Orcs can be any alignment.

Orcs as Monstrosities/Monstrous humanoids.

Orcs are pig-men, half boar half man. They were created by a deity or an arcanist. Orcs are mostly evil as the pork brain constantly tells them to take other people's stuff and only a few can channel that towards agents of evil.

Orcs as Fey

Orcs are corrupted versions of elves or the elf ancestor race. They are the elf-pig version of the fey centaur elf-horse and the fey satyr's elf-goat. They are Unseelie and evil.

Orcs as Fiends.
Orcs are legit demons. Half Orcs are a version of Tielfing. All Orcs are evil. Being extraplanar outsiders, their minds are not human and are always CE barring some sort of magic or a world event.

 

[QuentinGeorge]

To me it all comes down to creature type.

Orcs as Humanoids

Orcs are humanoids with big teeth, large muscles, darkvision,and powerful builds. They can reproduce with humans. Their largeness nudges their cultures and societies to favoring,strength, might, and intimidation. Orcs can be any alignment.

Orcs as Monstrosities/Monstrous humanoids.

Orcs are pig-men, half boar half man. They were created by a deity or an arcanist. Orcs are mostly evil as the pork brain constantly tells them to take other people's stuff and only a few can channel that towards agents of evil.

Orcs as Fey

Orcs are corrupted versions of elves or the elf ancestor race. They are the elf-pig version of the fey centaur elf-horse and the fey satyr's elf-goat. They are Unseelie and evil.

Orcs as Fiends.
Orcs are legit demons. Half Orcs are a version of Tielfing. All Orcs are evil. Being extraplanar outsiders, their minds are not human and are always CE barring some sort of magic or a world event.

Yes, and they have been consistently portrayed as "Orcs are Humanoids" for ALL of D&D's history.

 

[Minigiant]

Yes, and they have been consistently portrayed as "Orcs are Humanoids" for ALL of D&D's history.

I'd argue that Orcs were monstrosities Pre-3e and humanoid 3e and onward. That's the disconnect.

Many people refuse to admit that before 3rd edition, orcs were not humanoid and closer to a beastman like the old minotaur and harpies.

 

[Hussar]

I'd argue that Orcs were monstrosities Pre-3e and humanoid 3e and onward. That's the disconnect.

Many people refuse to admit that before 3rd edition, orcs were not humanoid and closer to a beastman like the old minotaur and harpies.

That's not right though.

Pre-3e, orcs were specfically delineated as humanoids. They were specifically called out as such. Numerous times in many places.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I'd argue that Orcs were monstrosities Pre-3e and humanoid 3e and onward. That's the disconnect.

Many people refuse to admit that before 3rd edition, orcs were not humanoid and closer to a beastman like the old minotaur and harpies.

In 1st edition orcs where classed as humanoid, but humans, elves, halflings, gnomes and dwarves were not.