D&D (2024) bring back the pig faced orcs for 6th edition, change up hobgoblins & is there a history of the design change

[steeldragons]

In closing, YES to evil pig-faced orcs!

That is all.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I'm not ignoring them. They are irrelevant to any game not occurring in Forgotten Realms....and/or any version of Forgotten Realms that doesn't include her or good drow.

Are we back to arguing personal games when the thread is about the default game --where FR for better or worse is the default setting for 5e again?

 

[jmartkdr2]

Not quite sure where people are getting the idea that this thread is exclusively about the future of DnD as though we're somehow involved in those decisions. OP certainly didn't say so.

 

[Faolyn]

Other Drizzt, I have no idea to whom you are referring. ...and I really don't consider some last minute sidekick generated for as much "oo wow how funky broody different" as the ONE good drow in the Forgotten Realms as a model upon which to base making any/all creatures allowed to think/do whatever they want.

Drow

Drow (sing & pl; pronounced: /draʊ/ drow[13][14][15] or: /droʊ/ dro[13][note 1]), also known as dark elves,[7][16] deep elves,[17] night elves,[15] under-elves,[1] and the Dark Ones among orcs,[18] were a dark-skinned sub-race of elves that predominantly lived in the Underdark.[19] They were...

forgottenrealms.fandom.com

 

[Vaalingrade]

Not quite sure where people are getting the idea that this thread is exclusively about the future of DnD as though we're somehow involved in those decisions. OP certainly didn't say so.

The title specifically citing that they want the porcs to be in 6e and then everyone else talking about that until being derailed.

 

[jmartkdr2]

The title specifically citing that they want the porcs to be in 6e and then everyone else talking about that until being derailed.

Ah, missed that. It's a silly idea anyways. Pig-orcs aren't better in any particular way (and I tend to use them!)

But talking about how individuals handle it isn't 'derailing' the thread - threadcrapping is probably doing more to disrupt the conversation than considering anecdotes. If someone's talking about their home game, either engage with the comment as it is, or don't engage with it.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

If you leave all the fluff text on orcs alone, they would still be evil without the alignment note. If you have multi-cultural orcs, how do you do it so that it works with multiple campaigns?

This is true; the fluff text on orcs makes it fairly clear that orcs are evil. I disagree with that text, and find it sets a poor precedent for having a race that is evil... well, it isn't actually made clear beyond "Gruumsh says so." I find this especially poor considering how orcs in their characterization is compared to the worst stereotypes made against African and indigenous cultures. I encourage you to listen to this podcast episode by Three Black Halflings, as they explain it far better than I ever could.

"Let's Hamilton This Guy" - Systemic Racism in Fantasy

Today we three share some tales from the table and answer some questions before discussing an amazingly written article by James Mendez Hodes entitled "Orcs, Britons, And The Martial Race Myth, Part I: A Species Built For Racial Terror", which talks about the intrinsic problems within Lord of...

art19.com

I see no problem with orcs having a singular culture, I just have a problem with the culture being evil. You can have a culture that isn't defined by being evil. You can even have a country ruled by an evil regime, but that is not the same as 100% of all members of this race being evil.

Don't disagree. In fact, I do agree and apply as such at my own table. On the same token, for a game at their table, all the justification they need is to say "they're evil". They don't need any further justification. I mean, we've spent the last several threads on this topic saying we don't care what they do at their own table. So if their table is "goblins are evil cuz I said so", then OK. I don't need any more info.

I think it is problematic for any table to establish that a race of creatures that is capable of forming bloodlines is 100%, unredeemable-y evil. It perpetuates racist stereotypes in the real-world about how genetics and race leads to smarter/better people (most of that science is complete racist bunk).

That said, I think you can craft a humanoid race that is devoid of such ties; I personally find the 5E fluff explanation of gnolls (hyenas that eat demon-tainted flesh) or Warhammer Orkz (humanoids born of a contagious fungus instead or mammal reproduction), or even lycanthropes (magical curse) as acceptable and divorced from real-world narratives. But the idea that every orc born will always be evil being the default assumption extremely uncomfortable, especially considering how half-orcs are a PHB core race. It sets a bad precedent for how race is portrayed in fantasy, and fantasy literature (and other forms of media) does indeed affect how people view diversity.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

"Some orcs are peaceful, existing as hunters, farmers, and trappers. Others are vicious raiders, performing vile acts for evil gods and spirits. Still others are just boisterous bruisers, enjoying a good fight without any need for it to end in death. In general, orcs tend to have strong emotions and are often reactionary, taking strong umbrage to perceived or actual slights which sometimes has lead to battle when they couldn't be pacified."

This reads a bit like some horoscopes I've read about myself (Aries). Honestly not a criticism, as those are designed to point out flaws and benefits in every person.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

Replacing goblins with the Scarlett Brotherhood is like apples and oranges, lots of similarities, but many key differences. The Brotherhood is an evil, supremacist organization, been that way since 1e and haven't really changed (Last source I have on them is the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer).

I don't think you really understood my play there; I was saying that the Scarlet Brotherhood (who are Suel) would say much of the same things SD said about goblins, but they would say it about Baklunish (a different group of humans). So I was attempting to point out that the words SD was using were extremely similar to race supremacists.

 

[Umbran]

Again, not "impossible." Never said that. Just unwanted...and unnecessary as almost all "change for change's sake"...

Here's the point that you seem to completely miss. This is not, "for change's sake".

This is for sake of taking one small step away from systemic problems.

Get on board with that, or not, as you prefer.