D&D (2024) bring back the pig faced orcs for 6th edition, change up hobgoblins & is there a history of the design change

[jmartkdr2]

I want the game to move on to a less racist format.

 

[Sithlord]

My favorite thing to do to as a
Dm is have an orc or drow tell them how they are different and misunderstood and just want to live in peace and be good... and then sneak attack or take advantage of them at the most opportune time when the players are their weakest.

 

[Mind of tempest]

My favorite thing to do to as a
Dm is have an orc or drow tell them how they are different and misunderstood and just want to live in peace and be good... and then sneak attack or take advantage of them at the most opportune time when the players are their weakest.

why?

 

[Sithlord]

why?

Because a player that doesn’t know a orc or drow is evil deserves what he gets.

why did the snake bite you... because it’s a snake.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Because a player that doesn’t know a orc or drow is evil deserves what he gets.

why did the snake bite you... because it’s a snake.

for starters that only works as a statement if you assume it is a venomous snake which is not always true and secondly, why are they evil?

 

[Sithlord]

for starters that only works as a statement if you assume it is a venomous snake which is not always true and secondly, why are they evil?

because they were made that way. But I use them as an allegory for barbarians at the gates of civilization envious of their accomplishments and even if they win they will not have what the people they conquered had because they don’t have the knowledge to maintain such a civilization or city.
I used most races like they were used in fairy tales.. as allegory. There is no Darwin or genetics. Animals talk. Unicorns are in forests.

 

[Mind of tempest]

because they were made that way

define how you mean that?
as drow at least are a culture of elves thus logically free to not be evil.

 

[Sithlord]

define how you mean that?
as drow at least are a culture of elves thus logically free to not be evil.

I edited my post to expand the points.

 

[Faolyn]

Talk about splitting hairs ... individual to groups becomes a fine line. How many instances does something need to be before you get to your magic number? Because that one number below, well you just told them they don't count.

The line is what the actual books write. I don't care what you do in your home game.

Wha - What? No sweeping generalization of different races (species)? Ok, I guess you don't want to play D&D. It is a game of stereotypes of races with sweeping generalizations. (at least until bring out more racial spat books for another edition)

I guess if you don't want to make cultures for your PC races, then yes, D&D is a game of stereotypes.

The concept of having general alignments does not bother me. If you would like to change the way the game works or is fluffed do it. But don't accuse them of something that is not true.

What did I accuse them of? If it's the bit where I talked about Volo's, that's a direct quote from the book. From "Roleplaying an Orc":

Most orcs have been indoctrinated into a life of destruction and slaughter. But unlike creatures who by their very nature are evil, such as gnolls, it's possible that an orc, if raised outside its culture, could develop a limited capacity for empathy, love, and compassion.

No matter how domesticated an orc might seem, its blood lust flows just beneath the surface. With its instinctive love of battle and its desire to prove its strength, an orc trying to live within the confines of civilization is faced with a difficult task.

If it's something else, please actually quote what I said.

Do not 'downplay' your stance that demonizes (seriously, if you had to summarize the argument it would be "this supports real world racism") the industry because of what they use or have written and that it in some way relates and has a major impact on the real world. (It does relate, but welcome to anything ever written).

Since you didn't quote me, I have no idea what you're referring to here.

Avoids rape? I'm sorry Tanis Half-Elven, your mom and dad just had irreconcilable differences. I'd consider my DL/DLA collection as canonical as Volo is this case. (Heck Half-races in many descriptions of this game were the product of non-consensual relationships).

From the Wikipedia article on Tanis:

Two accounts of Tanthalas Quisif-Nan Pah's (Tanis' elven name) birth exist. Both agree that Tanis was born in Qualinost. The first account is the Chronicles Trilogy, which states that Tanis was a product of rape. It is also described in the first chapter of Kindred Spirits. The violent nature of his conception, the nature of his birth, and the choice of his mother to die from shock after her assault all influenced the way the elves regarded Tanis and shaped his developmental years.

The second account of Tanis' origins is later presented in The Inheritance series. Here the story is elaborated on: his mother, Elansa Sungold, was originally kidnapped by Brand's brigands, however, she later fell in love with him, resulting in Tanis. At that time, Elansa was also married to the prince and so the prince tried to "rescue" her from Brand. When she refused to leave, he fought Brand and they both died. Pregnant with Brand's child, Elansa goes back to Qualinost pretending she was raped to protect her and Tanis.

Kindred Spirits was written 30 years ago, and Inheritance, 20 years ago. Two novels are hardly "the norm." And novels are not worldbooks. They're stories, while worldbooks are effectively encyclopedias or history texts.

Yes, D&D avoids rape. It certainly doesn't treat it the way it treats evil humanoids; i.e., the norm.

You want an unrelated hypothetical issue? Orcs, Goblins, Dragons, Elves, keep going list, are ... not ... real.

So... what...?

The language used to describe them is the same sort of bigoted language used to describe real people at times.

Just say what you mean, dude. Correct me if I'm wrong -- "I want the game to move to on to a less [insert concerns here] format" -- leave it at that. The more precise arguments you make, the more you've gotten away from the game and the more people are going to retaliate against each other.

I have, and so have others, repeatedly: we want setting books that avoid Always Evil or even Mostly Evil humanoids, at least when those humanoids are also canonical PC options.

Orcs, goblins, drow, etc., should be treated no differently than humans, halflings, elves, etc. They can be good guys, they can be bad guys, they can be neutral guys. And if they're bad guys, then they need a motivation beyond "they're an orc, goblin, or drow."

You are the one who has a problem with that.

I know exactly where I'm coming from. I don't think erasing the past is the way to go. Before you say "I'm not", you are.

No, I'm wanting to change how it will be depicted in the future.

These things did happen in the game and are forever part of its history, use them or not at level you and your group are comfortable with. You have taken a paradigm of racism and managed to apply it on so many levels it has gone over the top and would like to do a sweeping change of a trope of the game. But the game is based on tropes, and stereotypes, and cliches.

Tropes, stereotypes, and clichés change all the time. The time of the Always Evil orc or drow is over.

I don't think there needs to be a change, woot. You do, woot. I do feel like some are trying to coddle the next iteration of the game.

So, do you require female characters to have lower maximum Strength scores than male character? Do you assume that all PC half-orcs are part of that small percentage that can pass for humans? Is "elf" a race or a class? Do you use THAC0? Do you say all paladins have to be Lawful Good and can't be in the same party as a rogue? Do you assume that drow worship lots of demons, or just Lolth?

I assume you have accepted the changes the game has made since it was first created. So why are you so against changes being made now?

Play the game as we see fit. But if someone prefers that their bad-guy-mook-mob-blah-blah-blah be evil "and that's that", please don't accuse them, me, anyone of supporting racism or being insensitive to those who suffer through racism because we feel our orcs are mostly incurably evil.

If that was not the intent, it really feels like that was being said at many levels. Many posters simply said, "play your game, it is your game". That's all it should be, ease up on the rhetoric. Guess that applies to everyone here.

Since you apparently haven't realized it from the thousand times it's been said already by many people in this thread: We are not talking about your game. We are talking about what WotC is doing.

For some reason, when we say that WotC is starting to move away from using bigoted language, people like you get upset and offended. Why is that?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

If you take your arguments to the ultimate conclusion

There is almost never any legitimate reason to do so.