D&D (2024) bring back the pig faced orcs for 6th edition, change up hobgoblins & is there a history of the design change

[Faolyn]

I have no issue with evil regimes, I use them in my own campaigns. All I've ever said about evil regimes is that I don't think it makes sense to assume that every (human) member of that regime is evil.

Are you not paying attention to what you yourself have been writing?

Because as soon as people started talking about why evil empire, bandits, etc., are better for villains, you immediately started in with this "oh no, they're not all evil." So you're either assuming that DMs are going to run a evil empire where every single member is evil, or you just felt some bizarre need to tell us that the Nazi Youth was a thing.

And you do this while constantly touting your own always and irredeemably evil orcs. The ones who can never have another culture because they can't be cut off from Gruumsh. Because apparently Gruumsh is more powerful than the DM, despite the fact that you have said several times that you shouldn't be required to figure out every aspect of your world, meaning you could just sever their connection to Gruumsh if you felt like it and not worry about the reasons for it.

For some reason, you think that having an entire race of people who are evil is OK--from everything you've said, it sounds like if there were an Orcish Empire of Gruumsh in your world, every orc in it would be evil--but the DM coming up with a culture for orcs is some sort of horrible colonization thing that turns orcs into humans with bad teeth and having an Evil Human Empire where every human in it is evil is too unrealistic for you.

And you keep claiming that orcs with culture must be some sort of colonialization "finishing school" in-setting thing despite several of us telling you that no, it means that you, the DM, coming up with a culture for them.

Then you actively lie and claim that people have "implied" you are a racist or Nazi apologist. The word is inferred. As in, you came to that conclusion on your own, despite nobody actually saying anything to imply that.

And then you keep trying to claim that we're being mean about your game, and when it's pointed out that we're talking about the base-level, out-of-the-books game, you say stuff like "what is canon?" or "what is official?" and claim that you can't talk about games you don't play.

Do you see why I, and presumably some of the others, are quite frustrated by you?

 

[Chaosmancer]

I can always try to veer back to the original topic on why the orc hasn't gone back to the Pig orc appearance and folks have instead gone with their regular mental image of what orcs look like.

Paizo found out the hard way about people having a certain image for things when they asked for Tiefling artwork, expecting mix-mash of demon stuff like the old days, and instead got 4E style ones

I think that is an easy answer.

Because for the majority of people that isn't what an Orc looks like. They weren't pig-faced in Tolkien, not in the newer more popular movies anyways. They weren't pig-faced in Warcraft which was massively popular, and they weren't pig-faced in Warhammer which was also massively popular.

The only time I've seen pig-faced orcs with any regularity is in specific Anime from Japan. Same with Dog-Kobolds. Their style simply changed and going back to a pig-faced orc would be really weird for a lot of people.

 

[Hussar]

/snip


Funny. Over just the past few pages it's been implied that I'm a racist and a Nazi apologist.

There is an great feature on this board. It's called "Report Post". If someone has called you a racist or a Nazi apologist, then report them and let the mods deal with it.

 

[Chaosmancer]

We're talking about a fantasy world were a vengeful deity created a race for a specific reason. Why would it only be genetics?

In any case the physical structure of our brains has significant influence on our behavior. Some people are born without a sense of right or wrong.

I don't see why a different species would necessarily share our morality, especially not when they were created for a purpose in a fantasy world.

I think you grossly, grossly underestimate the power of anthropomorphization. Humans can literally look at a big rock or a big puddle and feel like that object thinks and feels like a human.

Sure, it might be possible that a different species could possibly not share our morality.

Except, we are explicitly judging them via our morality. And claiming that they do follow it. That is why they are evil. A term that is explicitly a function of human morality.

Meanwhile, they are humanoid in body shape.
They have human emotions like rage, anger, fear, greed, hunger, ect
They live in houses like we do
They live in communal groups like we do
They dress and use tools like we do, mostly the exact same tools
They have campfires and cook their food like we do.
They have babies via sex like we do
They have five fingered hands like we do
They can have babies with us, making them compatible with our biology.
They domesticate animals, hunt and gather like we do.


Look, I get that "if orcs are humans they are worthless and boring" but... seriously, every major player race is basically human. They are so insanely similar to us, because that is how we relate to and care about them. I'm sorry if you don't like it, but trying to fight that tide is a losing battle, and it has been since they had families instead of muddy pits.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

We don't (seriously) call cats 'evil' for being cats though.

Also cats and dogs aren’t that different. They’re both social animals that are happiest when they have at least one companion, who have a deep need for socialization, are naturally territorial, and a host of other common traits. A house cat acts more like a dog than like a tiger.

 

[Faolyn]

A house cat acts more like a dog than like a tiger.

And yet, both cats and tigers like boxes.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Henceforth all discussions about orcs and alignment shall be redirected to be about cats. It's the internet way. Certainly couldn't be less productive than they've been so far...

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Not sure exactly sure when orcs were changed but I argue they should be changed back

Art & Arcana touches on the evolution of orcs, among other monsters, over the editions.

 

[Bohandas]

So you’re saying it’s genetic? That’s yikes, because it suggests evil is a product of biology. Remember, we’re not just talking about different behaviors, we’re talking about morality. If the idea of good and evil being inborn traits doesn’t disturb you, I don’t know what to tell you. That’s generally not an idea that flies these days.

ALL thought and behavior is a product of biology. They originate as processes in the brain. Change the brain and you change the thoughts. That's why chickens don't act like humans and why stroke victims often have changes in personality and cognitive ability.

And how is it more troubling than your earlier example about sharks being bloodthirsty? If sharks can be bloodthirsty than why can't orcs? I think you may be implying a link to racism, but that argument doesn't hold because, despite Gary Gygax's abuse of English language, orcs are not a race. They are an entirely different species in EVERY setting I've ever seen that includes orcs. In fact, in the default D&D setting they don't even share a phylogenetic tree with humans; the shark in the earlier example is more closely related to us than the orcs are.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

I'm going to try and avoid much of the talk that's going on right now, but I will share my opinion.

I do not want orcs to become Pig-Faced again. I like Orcs as they are now, and it would be extremely inconvenient for them to return to an old depiction that is unpopular, unnecessary, and was undone years before I was even born, let alone introduced to D&D.

Just my two cents.