D&D (2024) bring back the pig faced orcs for 6th edition, change up hobgoblins & is there a history of the design change

[QuentinGeorge]

Orcs in 2nd edition:

Orcs are a species of aggressive mammalian carnivores that band together in tribes and survive by hunting and raiding. Orcs believe that in order to survive they must expand their territory, and so they are constantly involved in wars against many enemies: humans, elves, dwarves, goblins, and other orc tribes.

Orcs vary widely in appearance, as they frequently crossbreed with other species. In general, they resemble primitive humans with grey-green skin covered with coarse hair. Orcs have a slightly stooped posture, a low jutting forehead, and a snout instead of a nose, though comparisons between this facial feature and those of pigs are exaggerated and perhaps unfair. Orcs have well-developed canine teeth for eating meat and short pointed ears that resemble those of a wolf. Orcish snouts and ears have a slightly pink tinge. Their eyes are human, with a reddish tint that sometimes makes them appear to glow red when they reflect dim light sources in near darkness. This is actually part of their optical system, a pigment which gives them infravision. Male orcs are about 5½ to 6 feet tall. Females average 6 inches shorter than males. Orcs prefer to wear colors that most humans think unpleasant: blood red, rust red, mustard yellow, yellow green, moss green, greenish purple, and blackish brown. Their armor is unattractive besides — dirty and often a bit rusty.

Orcs have an average lifespan of 40 years. They have a gestation period of 10 months and produce two to three offspring per birth. Infant mortality is high. Orcs are carnivores, but prefer game meats or livestock to demihumans and humanoids.

It is said that orcs have no natural enemies, but they work hard to make up for this lack. Orc tribes have fearsome names such as Vile Rune, Bloody Head, Broken Bone, Evil Eye, and Dripping Blade.

Orcs are skilled miners who can spot new and unusual constructions 35% of the time and sloping passages 25% of the time. They are also excellent weaponsmiths.


Nothing there says that they are "created by arcanists or deities". In fact it says they reproduce naturally.

 

[Minigiant]

That's not right though.

Pre-3e, orcs were specfically delineated as humanoids. They were specifically called out as such. Numerous times in many places.

They were called humanoids.
They didn't act like humanoids.

That was the problem. Orcs acted like smart animals but since they had arms and legs, the game called them humanoid.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

They were called humanoids.
They didn't act like humanoids.

That was the problem. Orcs acted like smart animals but since they had arms and legs, the game called them humanoid.

Smart animals avoid humans, they don't try and eat them and thereby get themselves annihilated.

 

[Minigiant]

Smart animals avoid humans, they don't and eat them and thereby get themselves annihilated.

In D&D smart animals are monstrous humanoids.

If you have orcs be always or mostly evil by nature and not capable of making a no evil society, they aren't humanoids. They a big smart chimps with tusks

 

[Paul Farquhar]

In D&D smart animals are monstrous humanoids.

If you have orcs be always or mostly evil by nature and not capable of making a no evil society, they aren't humanoids. They a big smart chimps with tusks

Chimps have a society, although they also seem to share at least some capacity for evil with humans. The properly smart animals are the wolves who put their ears down, turned their head on one side, and made themselves useful to humans.

1st edition was a bit prone to misusing the English language, since it uses "humanoid" to mean "humanoid monster". In 1st edition humans weren't humanoid. Go figure!

But how did orcs behave in first edition? Mostly they stood around in small underground rooms waiting for someone to come and kill them and steal their stuff.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Speaking out of turn, and possibly out of place ... but where did SD claim that it was an impossibility for those races to have very rare good members?

I thought he was getting at the 99% of them are evil, those rare anomalies, are just that. And quite possibly make some good reading. (Man I wish I could have kept up with with RA Salvatore, but I'll be content rereading my spine broke Icewind Dale Trilogy).

"Very rare Good members" isn't what I'm talking about first of all. And While he hasn't directly stated it was impossible he did say (and I'm summarizing) that if it were possible for orcs and goblins deep down, to be good, then all those times that the players killed them are murder, and the characters are evil and that isnt appropriate for a kids game.

It was just a few posts ago, so it shouldn't be too hard to find

 

[Chaosmancer]

I apologize if I misread or misconstrued what was going on, but it didn't seem like steeldragons was talking about making the game officially like what they wanted, but was talking about their own personal table and preferences. I think their comment about "thankfully we don't game at each other's table" gave me that impression that it was a personal take thing, rather than an official position wotc should take

Which, again, hey that's cool. I'm not going to kick down people's doors.

But, we have stated, repeatedly, that an aspect of this discussion is what WoTC should do officially for the future of DnD. The OP started with that same premise, what should WoTC do. If this was only about what we would like to do at our own tables, the conversation would have been over. I made the changes I wanted to, nothing more to discuss. But, we aren't talking about individual tables, we are trying to discuss where the game should go in the future.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Who said it was difficult to imagine?

You seem to have been having difficulty with it, implying that it was impossible to do so and still have the game work as intended.

Other Drizzt, I have no idea to whom you are referring. ...and I really don't consider some last minute sidekick generated for as much "oo wow how funky broody different" as the ONE good drow in the Forgotten Realms as a model upon which to base making any/all creatures allowed to think/do whatever they want.

See, you seem to think that just because Driz'zt was first, there is no reason to consider any other good Drow. There is an entire Goddess in charge of an entire community of Good Aligned Drow, whose portfolio is literally redemption. Why does "driz'zt was too edgy" erase the lore of the game world?

Storm King's Thunder features a good aligned Frost giant named Harshnag the Grim showing that it isn't just Drow too.

And this isn't just a Forgotten Realms thing either, Verden Leafglow is a Green Dragon from the Dragonlance Series who was a good aligned green dragon that helped end a war.

And then you have Eberron, where none of these races is inherently evil.

And personally, I don't care that you don't care, but if you want to make the claim that Giants, Drow and Chromatic Dragons can't be good, then the literal evidence that they can be is pretty unassailable.

No one said orcs or goblins were "more evil" than Drow or Chromatics...though they, indisputably and irretrievably, are evil also.

Also, I never said -nor even implied- it was something that is "impossible to do." It's simply unnecessary and undesirable for the game.

Sorry, it isn't undesirable and whether or not it is neccessary is a moot point. It has happened.

And, here is my point. Drow and Chromatics are not irretrievably evil. Proven point, they can turn good. Lux was a Red Dragon from FR that had a change of conscious and turned good. It does happen. Elistraea is literally the goddess of good drow

So, either Orcs and Goblins was more evil than drow and chromatics, and actually irretrievably evil... or they aren't. And my money goes on them not being irretrievably evil

That is, also, untrue and not anything I ever said.

The only one of these "good from an evil race" characters that you seem to think are so widespread and popular, is Drizzt. I know he exists. I just see no reason that he should/does (after all this time). This singular afterthought from some Salvatore book should be "trend setting," let alone dictating anything, within the game. A single character in some fiction is not grounds for altering how every species or every imaginary creature and culture across D&D is "just like humans" -even though Dripz only exists in Forgotten Realms, whether they use him as the 'Elf" species picture in PHB or not.

Again, not "impossible." Never said that. Just unwanted...and unnecessary as almost all "change for change's sake" -more often than not, these days, exulted by the ridiculous label of "innovation" - is.

Hey look, not just Drizz't. There are examples from DnD and a variety of settings going back decades. So, you are just plain wrong. The only one who is super famous that everyone knows might be Drizz't, but that is like saying that just because you know one famous person from Alaska that you don't need to believe anyone else lives there.

Your claim is just flat wrong.

Right. This.

Nothing I (or any of us here) say is going to matter to what WotC ultimately does anyway.

Maybe, maybe not. Things certainly will never change if we just shrug and act like it doesn't matter though

 

[Chaosmancer]

Not quite sure where people are getting the idea that this thread is exclusively about the future of DnD as though we're somehow involved in those decisions. OP certainly didn't say so.

Title of the thread

"Bring back the Pig Faced orcs for 6th edition change up hobgoblins is there a history of the design change"

I don't know about you, but I'm willing to bet that 6th edition isn't being made at individual tables, bet it is being made by WoTC.

Edit: Sorry, guess I shouldn't respond before reading a few more posts. Hate catching up.

 

[Hussar]

They were called humanoids.
They didn't act like humanoids.

That was the problem. Orcs acted like smart animals but since they had arms and legs, the game called them humanoid.

What are you talking about? Orcs had cities and even countries. Adventures like The Silver Key presented orcs as having entire cities and cultures.

Orcs, right from the get go, have never been "smart animals". They were city building expansionists with language and culture and history.