Bringing common sense to AoOs

[Elvinis75]

Are you sure about that? Is that RAW? I thought that it is one AOO per opening as longer as you haven't already taken one for that type of action that drew the AOO. Thus one for them moving through one of your squares and but not multiple. He may be helpless through out the round but that doesn't change the fact that you have already taken one for that instance. I'm not convinced by your arguement. Am I misunderstanding you?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Elvinis:

What you're saying is that if someone attempts to grapple me, I get an AoO. If I take it, I can no longer make AoOs on anyone attempting to grapple me?

 

[Elvinis75]

For Hypersmurf and others

Elvinis:

What you're saying is that if someone attempts to grapple me, I get an AoO. If I take it, I can no longer make AoOs on anyone attempting to grapple me?

No, at least I don't think so. On other people for sure. On the same person for multiple tries also yes, however the person who is helpless isn't doing anything multiple times. His is reduced to helpless once and remains that way until the condition is removed. I can't see that as drawing multiple AOOs. It your situation the opponent is actively doing something multiple times that draws an AOO. I don't think that the helpless follow that pattern.

Has there been a ruling on the helpless and the AOOs? Can someone pass it along?

 

[Kemrain]

So, some people seem to think that simply standing next to a helpless character should provoke all of your Attacks of Opportunity in a round? I thought AoO's were described as 'those swings made in the course of trying to hit that only have a chance of connecting becuse your opponent let down his guard'. It seems DnD assumes that you're swinging your threatening weapon at every opponent in your threatened area, at all times. Even at the bodies laying on the ground? Hell, against most characters, the 4 attacks and 5 AoO's my current character could make would be much more devestating than a CdG, however, I can't see her bothering to swing her blades down at the man she just brought to -1 enough to 'breech his defenses and land a blow that otherwise had no chance to hit'. Damnit, he has a Dex of 0 and I get +4 to hit him, that's basically AC 1 for an unarmed opponent. I can miss that? Making attacks on him shouldn't be free, because I'm not swinging my weapons at him, I'm trying to fight off his friends. If he and I were fighting alone, and he becomes helpess, Combat Mode is over, and no one provokes AoO's.

Granted, I don't 100% agree with the description of AoO's given above. I've done a little weapons play and found that when my opponent let his guard down I was making an extra attack, yes, but as a swing over what I would have been making had they kept up their guard. To a degree, I like the 1 roll 1 attack idea, though I agree that it breaks down when all of the combatants have only 1 attack in a round (Anyone who can only swing their weapon once in 6 seconds needs a lighter weapon).

From a game-balance point of view, Being helpless provoking AoO's is probably a very bad idea. I could see Becoming helpless provoking, if it's done in a threatened area, but remaining helpless from round to round is too much of a stretch of my sense of fair play and understanding of time. If simply standing next to a paralized person allowd me to unload 5 attacks on them then I need to boost my saves because helplessness has become more of a death sentance than ever.

- Kemrain of the Opportunistic Attack.

 

[irdeggman]

(all from the 3.5 PHB)
pg 135 “You can make 1 AoO per round.”

pg 137 “An AoO is a single melee attack and you can make one per round.”

“This feat {Combat Reflexes} does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two AoO from you – such as by moving out a threatened square and then casting a spell in a threatened square – you could make two separate AoO (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.”

Table 8-2 (in the PHB) lists what actions generate AoO. Remember it is an action that generates an AoO not a condition. For example, being prone doesn’t generate an AoO but standing up does. Now there are various attack modifiers based on conditions to benefit the attacker – helpless opponents have a Dex of 0 (-5 modifier) and melee attacks against them get a +4 bonus. But this is a condition and not an action and hence does not generate an AoO in addition to the attack modifers (and Ac adjustment).


I had mis-spoke myself earlier. It is no more than 1 AoO per opportunity. And a character can only make more than 1 AoO per round if he has the Combat Reflexes feat.

Also a 5' step never generates an AoO, so a threatened character can take a 5' step (to get out of threat range) and then cast a spell without generating an AoO.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Has there been a ruling on the helpless and the AOOs? Can someone pass it along?

Oh, the ruling is clear. Being helpless does not make one vulnerable to AoOs.

I'm just saying it should.

Let's say during the course of a round, I swing my sword at my opponent half a dozen times (when we make the movie of the combat).

Since my BAB is only +3, then against an opponent who is on his guard, I only roll the die for one of those swings. The others are all parried, dodged, or whatever by the opponent's normal combat guard.

If the opponent attempts to grapple me, then he leaves a gap in his defences. One of those cinematic swings that would normally be automatically deflected is now met by no resistance... so I get to roll a die to see if it actually deals damage - an AoO.

If he attempts to grapple me twice, and I have Combat Reflexes, then while for most of the round, my cinematic swings are automatically blocked, there are now two gaps in his defences, and I get to roll an attack roll for both of those.

The swing I make in between those two, when there is no gap in his defences, however, is still automatically dodged. It doesn't get a die roll; it's part of the movie, but it's not mechanically represented by the rules.

New situation - the opponent is paralysed. There is no longer a defence with an occasional gap I can slip an AoO through - there is just the gap. Every single time I make one of those cinematic swings, it should meet exactly the same resistance it did when the opponent dropped his guard to grapple - none. Every AoO I would normally be capable of making in a round, due to a lapse in an opponent's guard, should be able to take an advantage of no guard whatsoever.

A helpless opponent is not an opportunity... it's every opportunity.

But, somehow, by the rules, a helpless opponent has a better guard against opportunistic attacks that someone who only takes his attention off the combat for an instant.

-Hyp.

 

[irdeggman]

But, somehow, by the rules, a helpless opponent has a better guard against opportunistic attacks that someone who only takes his attention off the combat for an instant.

Which is why the helpless opponent has a dex of 0 (-5 modifier to AC) and all melee attacks made against him have a +4 to hit. The rules already handle the disadvantage mechanically. If bieng helpless also generates an AoO then the 'free' attack would have an essential +9 to hit - way out of balance game-wise.

Now to 'properly' capture that cinematically would be to use the cleave/great cleave feats. One blow to kill the helpless opponent then go after the next opponent with the free attack from the cleave and so on. . .

Another way to look at helpless is a the opponent is made helpless by being knocked down/out. Does this generate an additional AoO? Nah the character is already on the ground. If he tries to get up, well then its clobberin' time.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Which is why the helpless opponent has a dex of 0 (-5 modifier to AC) and all melee attacks made against him have a +4 to hit. The rules already handle the disadvantage mechanically.

Let's say that against the helpless opponent, I'm effectively guaranteed to hit, while against his normal AC, I have a 50% chance of hitting.

I also want to move this round, so I can't take the Full Round Action to CDG.

Against the opponent who is paralysed, cannot move, and has no defence whatsoever, my expected damage with my longsword is 4.5. (1d8, guaranteed hit.)

Against the opponent who is mobile, actively defending himself, but leaves two gaps in his defence when he attempts to disarm me and then run away, my expected damage is 6.75 (three attacks - my normal attack plus two AoOs - at a 50% chance to hit each).

I expect to deal more damage to the person who is defending himself than to the one who can't.

-Hyp.

 

[buchw001]

Let's say that against the helpless opponent, I'm effectively guaranteed to hit, while against his normal AC, I have a 50% chance of hitting.

I also want to move this round, so I can't take the Full Round Action to CDG.

Against the opponent who is paralysed, cannot move, and has no defence whatsoever, my expected damage with my longsword is 4.5. (1d8, guaranteed hit.)

Against the opponent who is mobile, actively defending himself, but leaves two gaps in his defence when he attempts to disarm me and then run away, my expected damage is 6.75 (three attacks - my normal attack plus two AoOs - at a 50% chance to hit each).

I expect to deal more damage to the person who is defending himself than to the one who can't.

-Hyp.

Only if you have combat reflexes. Otherwise your expected damage is the same against both. Normal attack (at 50%) = 2.25 plus one AoO (at 50%) = 2.25 gives 4.5

 

[FireLance]

Which is why the helpless opponent has a dex of 0 (-5 modifier to AC) and all melee attacks made against him have a +4 to hit. The rules already handle the disadvantage mechanically. If bieng helpless also generates an AoO then the 'free' attack would have an essential +9 to hit - way out of balance game-wise.

Being helpless means while you're threatened by an opponent pretty much means that you're in big trouble, anyway. A CDG is the equivalent of at least two successful strikes with a normal weapon (and may be three, or four) plus a chance to automatically die.

What really gets to me about helpless defenders is this: by the rules, a helpless defender does not attract an AOO for simply being helpless. However, a helpless defender (say, one that is held and is still capable of mental actions) who manifests a psionic ability, casts a still, silent spell, or uses a spell-like ability does. It offends my sense of logic (yeah, I know, it's a game - but still...) that you can become "more helpless" when you're casting a spell. Does the flashing neon sign over your head suddenly change from "Helpless Opponent: Do Not AOO" to "Spellcaster Alert! AOO At Will"?

So what happens if you're allowed to AOO on helpless opponents? Well, you trade the chance of instant death for the possibility of doing more damage, and if you have a weapon with a high crit multiplier, you may do more damage CDGing, anyway. Characters with Combat Reflexes can become whirlwind blenders of death against helpless opponents, but given that the opponent was already helpless in the first place, he probably wouldn't have survived anyway.